For 11 years, Mark Swidan has languished in a Chinese prison on charges no one believes. ‘If this were a politically connected person, he would have been out a long time ago.’
"In China, the criminal justice system is not really about crime or justice as much as it is a tool used by the powerful to shut down or scare off those who threaten their power. "
Hillary on all accounts committed serious felonies and was acquitted before she was investigated. Trump has had witch hunt after witchhunt inflicted on him and has now been indicted for something roughly equal to jaywalking.
And Jan. 6th protesters have been held in some cases nearly two years for misdemeanors much less serious than things BLM protesters were released for the next day. You have with the Jan. 6th protesters people in jail for many months WHO DID NOT EVEN SET FOOT IN THE CAPITAL, and in the BLM case arsonists not even arrested.
No, we are not as bad as China, but we are plainly headed in that direction. If you are an HONEST Liberal you have to admit that is obvious.
As usual, I have a different take on all of this. Russia, Iran, China and all of the communist nations are brutal and gruesome and we all know that. So why would anyone with half a brain visit of them?
I have little or no sympathy for anyone who is scarfed up in these countries and put in one of the hell hole prisons. Would I like them release? Yes, most of them but that anti-American basketball player could have stayed and rotted in a Russian jail for all I cared. I wonder if her experience changed her mind about the US. I doubt it.
If you don't want to end up in a CCP prison. Don't go there. Go to England or Australia or better yet, Portugal where they have wonderful food, wine and beaches and come back from your stay smiling and happy. Don't go to CCP or Russia and rot in one of their hell hole prisons where the food is crappy and you are beaten. There are no beaches or wine and you come back, if you come back, you are broken in spirit and health without a smile on your face.
Another observation that I am sure will draw the ire of some of the people I have known and liked on this BBS. I am dead set against the Peace Corps and church mission trips to impoverished countries. We have enough problems here in the US that need attention. Take foreign aid for example. Why do we send money to countries who hate us when we need that money here in the US or better yet don't spend it at all. I know it is a drop in the bucket but use it for debt reduction.
Well I know I've pissed enough of you off so I'll quit. I eagerly await the tar and feathering.
I'm afraid I had the same reaction: traveling to a totalitarian country is a huge risk. And this man wasn't going there for any morally significant reason (to help someone or visit a family member); he was trying to save money on building materials. I wonder if he stopped to consider the condition of the people who were laboring to produce those materials so cheaply.
Yep. For those of us old enough to remember the "Iron Curtain" (I had a kids Christmas album that had a song about Santa Claus not being able to visit the Soviet Union because of this), we understand that Russia and China are still communist countries whose governments don't put the same value on personal freedom (the way the US is going, not sure when I'll be saying the same thing about America).
I remember the "Iron Curtain." As a child that reference terrified me. That, and Nikita banging his shoe on the desk boldly exclaiming, "We will bury you."
There is no reason to go to dangerous countries like this
My husband has respectfully refused business/work trips to dangerous countries. He just tells the company he doesn't feel safe traveling to xyz country. He does Zoom online virtual meetings instead. I would never let him go. It's not worth the risk.
yes i agree..for the most part. although it is important to know how people are living under duress so reporting is important. saving $$ on flooring is not..do not take drugs into countries where death is the penalty. if you waver. watch Midnight Express.. that should make you cancel your ticket
I think Americans should go to some of these other countries to see first hand what they are like and meet a few people.
BUT, go there with some humility and your eyes wide open - don't do things that will get too much attention or break their laws, and respect their customs. Check with the US Gov about security warnings. That is, DON'T be an Ugly American. If you can't do that, don't go.
I disagree. The WSJ reporter arrested in Russia did nothing wrong and neither did the young man in China.
China is murdering Uigurs because they are Uigurs and Muslims. If you go to these countries and act like a saint and they want to make a propaganda example out of you, you are screwed. I would never, never go to one of these countries.
Please don't take this wrong but I think you are being naïve.
I’m not a liberal. Hillary was not acquitted. Comey refused to indict. No doubt he was wrong and motivated by politics rather than the law. There are serious problems with justice and politics in America, but if America was China, Trump would have been eliminated and we wouldn’t be arguing.
The comment did not say the justice systems in the two countries are the same. Only that as in China, the US criminal justice system is used as a tool by the powerful. Anyone who denies that is a fool or a liar.
Yes. Quite a few people here have been at pains to point out that China's and America's legal systems don't operate identically--but why would they? They developed completely independently. Stressing the obvious differences between them risks missing the forest for the trees while evading what's really at issue; namely, the extent to which both justice systems are politicized and stack the deck in favour of the rich and powerful. In this respect, the parallels hardly flatter us as much as many would like to pretend.
Trump's case is instructive: he's the class traitor, the beneficiary of the system who got out of line and tried to do something for the little guy. The powerful had to make an example of him and have been pursuing their project relentlessly since 2016. Since they control academia, governmental institutions (including the DOJ) and the media it's not too much trouble for them, and it's in their interest. While the result was predictable it was also transparent; yet they're confident enough now in the unassailability of their position that, if they ever cared much about public opinion, they no longer do so, and in any event opinion can be censored and shaped as needed whenever it matters.
...and in the USA the powerful make sure you know this by flaunting their power in The New York Times and on CNN. Media in America isn't actually owned by the state, but it might as well be. The control is exercised through corporate intermediaries, and everybody (or at least everybody in the one percent) gets rich.
No. Not true at all. American justice may be politicized in some cases (ala Trump). Defendants may suffer from poor representation in some cases.. But bribery of judges is essentially unheard of in America. Collusion between prosecutors and judges is essentially unheard of. Does misconduct happen? Sure. But it's so rare that it makes news when it does.
There is simply no comparison between American courts and Chinese courts. The former exists to at least try and arrive at the truth; the latter exists to protect the ruling regime.
Sorry, the difference is one of degree, not of type.
"In the first comprehensive accounting of judicial misconduct nationally, Reuters identified and reviewed 1,509 cases from the last dozen years – 2008 through 2019 – in which judges resigned, retired or were publicly disciplined following accusations of misconduct. In addition, reporters identified another 3,613 cases from 2008 through 2018 in which states disciplined wayward judges but kept hidden from the public key details of their offenses – including the identities of the judges themselves."
"A former local district court judge in Arkansas was arrested today in Little Rock on criminal charges related to his alleged solicitation of sex in exchange for agreeing to take action on a criminal case pending before his court.."
You're making my exact point. American judges are punished when they significantly veer from some standard of justice. Your examples demonstrate that our system does actually work -- no perfectly, but it works.
Removing a judge for "misconduct" in China is unherd of, unless the judge starts acquitting people.
China may be more tolerant of corruption of the 'right kind'. But don't think that the list above is all the corruption that goes on in the US - these are just the ones that got caught.
Honestly, this is an idiotic comment. You should go live - not as an American, but as a regular subject - in a communist country and THEN tell us what you think. A perfect example of the deadly combination of a spoiled American’s ignorance and arrogance. This explains a lot of the crazy things that are slowly destroying the US.
I spent a bit of time in E. Germany, Czechoslovakia, and Hungary back in the day. Yes, they were very oppressive. Our system is not as bad as those, but it is definitely going rapidly in the wrong direction.
You spent “time” there as an American with dollar-filled pockets and you were lucky nothing happened to you. Many foreigners actually believed communist countries to be like heaven; their dollars went incredibly far and all the pretty girls were crazy for them - for the same $ reason. You could come and go as you pleased, you could shop at the special stores selling for dollars. You were like some kind of demi-god in a country of slaves. You have no clue whatsoever what it means to be born, raised and live at the whim of a communist regime or any other dictatorship. Not to mention that E. Germany, Czechoslovakia and Hungary were the “Cadillacs” of the Soviet block.
Negative. I spent time in East Bloc countries under communism. I had virtually no money, and I was often shunned because it was dangerous to talk to a Westerner. I never found a "specialty store", not that I had money for it, and everything was scarce. There were no "Cadillacs" in the Soviet Bloc. The fear was palpable. BigT is right - we're not there yet, but we're going in that direction.
Give me a break. “Virtually no money” means one thing: hard currency, the kind that people in communist countries didn’t have because having it was a serious crime. The fact that you don’t know the difference between communist Central Europe and the rest of the block says everything. There’s a special place in hell for ignorant and hypocritical westerners visiting the communist world on “virtually no money” and pretending that they’ve lived the hardship and they know all about it. And there weren’t “specialty stores”, just stores where you needed dollars to shop. They didn’t look like much at all to any westerner, but they had secret police watching it in case a local would try to shop there. Another thing that you don’t seem to have noticed in your tourist days.
You seem to know more about Sea Sentry's experience than he does. Presumably your confidence is rooted not in what you've read but in having actually visited and perhaps lived in all the same places he mentions; otherwise, the deeper insight and expertise you're implicitly claiming would be fraudulent, yes? Buy even if such wisdom and experience were yours, and you aren't simply spouting hot air, how would this translate into a relevant rebuttal of his own perceptions and understanding? On what logical ground should we accept your contemptuous dismissal of them as warranted?
Besides being aggressive and implying you know more than I do, I'm not sure what your point is. "A special place in hell...". Really? I was in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and East Germany. I did not live there, so I was indeed a tourist. They were all different culturally, but all very much police states. I detected no Cadillac among them. The Russian army was still rolling up the streets each night in Prague when I was there. The one exception was Yugoslavia, which as you know managed to forge its own path somehow between the West and the Soviet Union. It was reasonably tolerable if you could get past the pictures of Tito everywhere. And I mean everywhere.
I visited family in Prague in 1984. They lived pretty close to the bone, but were glad to see us. We visited a friend of theirs who lived just down the street from Wenceslas Square. After a few minutes they turned the radio up very loud, and she went to the shelf and brought down a small box. Inside was a bullet that got lodged in their wall in 1968.
So yes, mr know-it-all, I've seen it firsthand. Some of us can learn from the experience of others.
If what you’ve learned is that the American justice system is no better than the one in communist China, then it seems you need to travel and learn a bit more.
I was a Peace Corps Volunteer in China a bit over ten years ago. I was friends with a young man my age in the town I was teaching who I knew smoked weed, which didn't bother me though I knew it was illegal. He was a funny guy, and early into my two years of being a volunteer English teacher, I found making friends very difficult, but he was an easy guy to talk to and hang out with. One day he disappeared. Over a year later, I was at a local restaraunt and suddenly I saw him at a table near me. He was dangerously skinny and missing many teeth. He told me that he had been arrested for marijuana posession, and had been beaten daily while in jail by both guards and other prisoners. The authorities released him when his mother paid them their life savings. This was a 22 year old local young man who's father had passed away years ago and whose mother was not wealthy, not even by the very low standards of that part of China.
We ate lunch together, though he wouldn't really make eye contact and barely ate. It took him the entire meal to really tell me what happened to him. After the meal, we walked out and I gave him my number again and told him to call me some time, that we should go get a beer like old times. He smiled just a little, the only time he did during that meeting, and said sure. I never saw him again.
The CCP are thugs, and stupid ones at that, pure and simple.
PC no longer exists in China, it officially ended in 2020. I think the PC in China had real benefits. We met people who had never met an American. We taught English to people who had never heard a Westerner speak English in real life before. In a country where they hear mostly negative things about America from their governement, we were friendly faces who were there to help, and we were doing it for free. I am still in contact with many of my students who are eager to escape their bubbles and hear from outside voices about what the world around them. I think in a very real-world way, the PC was a great diplomatic program in China. I also think it was the right decision to end the program, for many reasons.
Please don’t thank me for that. I think it’s a worthwhile venture and it was the experience of a lifetime. But I did it by cihoice and for my own benefit, which does not mean it is not a good thing but also I don’t think anyone owes me any gratitude. I am grateful to the US tax payer for making it possible for well educated youth like I was to do it. No one owes us anything for it.
My son is a RPC having served in Benin, WA. My wife and I went to visit him. I was so incredibly impressed by what he was doing and by his peers. Those PCV I met I thought are among the very best of America. He has returned a very different young man. Service to people, regardless of where and how can and should be thanked and recognized.
I have a friend who was in a Chinese prison for three years. She came home last summer. She lived in China, working for a company that teaches English there. She helped the teachers with their legal paperwork and whatnot. She was arrested out of the blue, at an airport on her way home for a visit. None of the charges against her were real. Her stories of her time there are absolutely horrific. The State Dept was involved, but I think the lawyer her family hired (for God knows how much money—he worked on her case for years) is who finally got her out.
I guess if she had been a basketball player who checked some “diversity” boxes (and even knowingly broke the law in the country she was visiting), maybe the U.S. would have traded a terrorist arms dealer for her freedom. But she was just an ordinary straight, white, cis female who did nothing wrong, so her family had to drain their bank accounts, raise funds, and rack up debts to get her out. She came home severely malnourished and obviously emotionally scarred, so they all get to pay that price as well. Never, ever will I travel to China or allow my children to.
No they're not. Straight means you're attracted to the opposite sex. "Cis" means that your "gender identity" matches your biological sex. In case you couldn't tell from the quotes, I consider the two quoted terms ridiculous anti-concepts that don't actually exist but for the delusions of some people. I'm providing information for its own sake.
"Cis" means that your "gender identity" matches your sexed body. So gays and lesbians can be "cis". TQ is insisting that good old fashioned sexual orientation is a "gender orientation" now. The sexed body you inhabit doesn't matter. How you perceive yourself in your head does. If you are gay or lesbian and have no interest in having sex with trans men (who are actually female) or trans women (who are really men!) you are transphobic.
China is a dangerous evil country. Travel there at your own risk. I’m more concerned with OUR broken justice system. Political prosecutions. Incarceration for years for misdemeanors-j6. IRS used to intimidate journalists. We have PLENTY of judicial problems here that need to be addressed.
China’s hardly a dangerous and evil country. It’s certainly not politically free to the same extent that America is. If you engage in activity that directly challenges the CCP there will almost certainly be consequences. But most people simply live their lives in peace. What evil country has spent decades uplifting hundreds of millions of its own citizens out of poverty and overseeing one of the greatest economic transformations in human history? What evil country has sent millions of its own people abroad in past decades to engage with and learn from the rest of the world?
China, like many countries in East Asia, has one of the lowest rates of violent crime in the world. The intentional homicide rate per 100,000 people is consistently below 1 on the mainland despite China being only a moderately developed country. Many Chinese I talk to point to high rates of crime in American cities as one of the factors that dissuades them from wanting to be in this country long term. Black on Asian crime in particular is something that the mainstream media has tended to downplay or ignore altogether.
I would argue that cities like Chicago or Detroit are dangerous places. Evil is progressive Alameda DA Pamela Price entertaining the possibility of no jail time for the gang members who killed Jasper Wu.
I'm pretty sure China harvests organs from executed prisoners rather than living ones, but maybe you have evidence to the contrary. In any case, I wasn't trying to get the conversation sidetracked by discussions of the ethics of organ harvesting.
"Last month, the American Journal of Transplantation – the top peer-reviewed publication on the subject – published a large-scale computational textual analysis of 2,838 Chinese-language articles published in Chinese academic journals between 1980 and 2015 which supports the inference that transplant surgeons in the People’s Republic of China (PRC) removed organs, including hearts and lungs, in violation of the internationally-accepted “dead donor” rule, i.e., before donors have been (or could be) declared “brain dead.”
Interesting to dig into potentially, but I don't agree with your tendentious assertion that this means they harvest organs from "living" prisoners.
I try never to buy Chinese-sourced stuff ever. Such small economic quibbling is the only real power that I have. But, of course, it's virtually IMPOSSIBLE not to buy Chinese-sourced stuff.
"Such small economic quibbling is the only real power that I have"
Hmmm, you could try voting for a president willing to impose tariffs on China and unleash our energy sector so corporations here could compete on a more fair basis. Oh wait, we did have a president who actually did that.
Did you vote for him or the the puppet whose sole goal seems to be knee capping our manufacturing sector to China's benefit?
"You can shove your sarcasm where the sun don't shine, Internet bully-boy"
My, my, sensitive aren’t we. It must have taken great courage for you to emerge from your safe space long enough to type out such a witty response, however I notice you didn’t answer my question. So sorry my dear, I won’t be shoving my sarcasm where you suggest because then I wouldn’t be able to poo on your hypocrisy.
I just thought The Free Press was a place where adults congregated and talked about issues civilly—and occasionally changed their stances about issues. Guess I'm wrong.
Jesus, Tim, what the hell is wrong with you? Do you even have the first clue who Patrizia voted for? Do you know her personally? Who starts a conversation like that anyway?
Are you a Walmart shopper Lee? If so, please tell me what prices went up as a result of Trumps tariffs. The fact is no one at Walmart or any other retailer noticed any change in prices until Biden became president. Now, because of Bidenflation, EVERY shopper, home buyer, credit card holder… is paying more and getting less.
You provided a list of products subject to the tariffs. I asked for actual price increases. If prices increased 25% as Walmart’s Director of Global Affairs suggested in the article, it shouldn’t be too hard to find evidence. It seems Walmart was couple of years early and a president short with its prediction.
Do you actually believe that WalMart would have swallowed that increase? Really? WalMart doesn’t bear the cost of anything. If they did we wouldn’t have seen their prices increase in 2022.
The tariffs on China are good & should be increased more.
Biden's Inflation is a direct result of him giving $$$ BILLLIONS $$$ excessively in "COVID stimulus" 3-4 times, to many people who didn't need the money. Including wealthy people. People spend too much, inflation goes up. there are people who unfortunately buy more than they need, buy garbage they don't even want, with money they don't have. People who don't know how to save money. This causes inflation.
I don't ever buy Made in China. And I don't buy garbage. You buy garbage, it breaks immediately, go re-buy more garbage, it's a cycle where you end up spending more money. I buy Made in USA, good quality. It lasts.
Same here. I do not buy Made in China. If country of origin is not listed, I don't buy the product. I am particularly cautious with online purchases. I verify that the product is not made in China.
And we let this nation send 300k students to study in our universities and 10s of thousands more work in our research labs. Any sane, coherent nation would cancel all visas with such a hostile nation. Get this if you get nothing else. The Progressive/Marxist victory is in part based on two very important ideas. First, that the individual is secondary to the collective. Anything can be done to a single individual in service to the collective. Second is that the very idea of the 'nation state' is anachronistic and morally flawed at some basic level. They have succeeded in brainwashing most Americans with these ideas at an ambient level, like it may not be something most could overtly state but most Americans are suspicious of individualism and nationalism at this point.
You make a very good and very important point most are missing: it is called de-individuation.
“First, that the individual is secondary to the collective. Anything can be done to a single individual in service to the collective.”
This is a very, very dangerous thing indeed. Most dangerous in that it doesn’t apply to those who wish to wield it. They are the new elite (the educated upper middle class) who put themselves above the collective and brand them with names. As the governments of these countries do.
Except they cannot exist without a favorable nation state. That is what we are witnessing now - the values, traditions, even language of the individual being overwritten by the national overlords.
Ding, ding, ding! Yup. The incoherence is startling once you see it. Sort of like pointing out to a feminist that the horrible, patriarchal west built the modern world that gave her a chance to even think about "equality".
I work at a university and believe having students from China is ultimately to our long-term benefit. They get to see what life is like here, they make friends with Americans, etc. If they return to China, they return with a less hardened attitude, which can only be beneficial in the long term. Is it going to change things in China immediately? No. But, over time, it can help.
"I work at a university and believe having students from China is ultimately to our long-term benefit"
Yea, like granting them WTO status. Chinese citizens are nothing more than nails and anyone trying "to change things in China" ends up on the blunt end of the CCP hammer.
Yup. And to the rests of the world we look like an empire. And given that we've thrown 80 coups and have been the most militaristic nation on the planet since WWII, who can we say they are wrong? Much of the world isn't a willing participant in the "Western Liberal Rules Based Order" - and why would they be? We are a bully and an unreliable, self-interested actor on the world stage. The current admin is so drunk on their moral superiority and vision of themselves as running the world that they will start WWIII if they don't watch themselves. And there is a very good chance we'd lose such a war today.
Yes, but over here, those students are free. Over there, we are not. My ex-husband was in Beijing 1980s with an American helicopter company. Very different government and country back then. They didn't even have potable water at the time; that's how far they have come industrially, literally on the backs of their people. We watched human beings construct huge buildings without machinery. It was unbelievable. When you are in China, you are not free. You are not even an individual. Americanisms do not matter there. Caution and personal responsibility is absolutely warranted when traveling anywhere abroad, but especially in countries whose values are very different from ours.
I agree that Chinese students who come to the US are better off than in China. But thinking we can fix China solely through bringing Chinese students here, while keeping a very laissez-faire attitude about trade, and while ignoring China's human rights violations, is naive.
Yes, the students are free while on US soil, subject to US laws, as we are over there (also subject of this article) until their own governments intervene to help them or check them (as is the case you are making). US citizens are free to do as they choose in other countries without government interference or checking (hence Brittany Griner making a very bad error, as did the coaches responsible for her). Judging whether Chinese students are better off over here is... a judgment... only they can make. The Chinese culture is centuries old and infamous rich in culture. I don't think they need "fixing". They are evolving like everyone else, and we have our own human rights violations to deal with. Exposing students to differences in any country, which social media now does in epic proportions, is also a way. We must respect the people of other countries to live as they choose unless and until they ask for our help.
First of all, I don't need a lesson on Chinese history or a talking down to about the obligation to respect people in other countries. I'm a Canadian/American. Like many Scots-Canadians, I'm proud of Norman Bethune's contribution to China.
Regarding our obligation to respect the people of other countries, I agree. But I do not take the globalist neo-liberal view that we must respect people of other countries while ignoring the obligation to respect the citizens in one's own country (Canada and the US in my case.) The United States and Canada are full of people who are poor, out of work, lack access to medical care and education. While I believe we do not necessarily need to choose between domestic and international human rights issues, there is a limit to how much we can accomplish internationally.
I do not agree that people in China and people who travel to China are free. This statement "US citizens are free to do as they choose in other countries without government interference", which you make above, is false.
Both governments advise exercising a high degree of caution on travel to China due to the enforcement of "arbitrary laws".
So, regardless of China's rich culture, which goes back to before the Neolithic, the current state of China is not good, and I would not want to travel there.
Americans, Canadians, and virtually anyone else, are not "free" while in China.
I don't care. Chinese should overthrow their govt instead of buying into the corrupt bargain the CCP has made with its people. That's their problem. And fyi, since we decided to help them build a modern, industrial economy over the past 40 years, we've made it impossible for the Chinese people to rise up.
Sorry but as I've been repeatedly pointing out, enlightened people like Kishore Mahbubani argue that most Chinese view the CCP as highly competent post-Mao, quibbles over zero-covid aside. There's no real desire among the people of China to overthrow the government, so I'm not sure why Americans keep obsessively pushing for it.
As our trade war with Japan during the 1980s demonstrated, even an erstwhile ally can still be viewed as an economic threat, so it's hardly likely that a change in the form of governance in China would somehow eliminate competition between the US and China.
"most Chinese view the CCP as highly competent. There's no real desire among the people of China to overthrow the government"
Why wouldn't the Chinese people want freedom for themselves? Freedom to do as they please. No Great Firewall. No restrictions on what you say or do. To live like people in Singapore, Japan, South Korea live? Many Chinese have moved to Singapore recently. Why wouldn't they want China to be more like that? I'm actually asking from a position of curiosity.
Yes, there were leaders in between Mao and Xi and a drastic change in economic policy and progress, though authoritarianism still ruled the day (Tiananmen Square). Deng Xiaoping who began the unprecedented economic and industrial progress ("to get rich is glorious"), saw gross national product quadruple by 2000. While my ex-husband was in Beijing 1982, we watched people erecting huge buildings by hand. There was no potable water and only one major hotel, The Lido. The growth between 1980 and today is a staggering achievement. China has produced a middle class that rivals our own, so yes, they are as nationalist as we are. But, as in all places with millions of people under authoritarian rule, with a view to the freedoms and liberties of other countries, namely the US, it is a double-edged sword. There is a fine line between freedom and oppression.
Glenn, you stray a bit from your original good point. People overthrowing a government is not easy, as we all well know, but I agree we helped make China the successful industrial machine they are now, and there are consequences that come with that. We must ensure de-individuation doesn't occur on our own soil. That task at hand is primary and hard enough. The individual is not supreme but the collective is not either. Individual sovereignty within community is the way.
Personally, I’m always amused to hear Americans advocating for the Chinese to rise up and overthrow their government. What is it about us Americans and our fetish for regime change?
Most Chinese view the CCP as fairly competent and are trying to work to incrementally evolve and reform the political system in China. I’ve opined that the disconnect between Americans and Chinese in terms of their respective views of the CCP is sort of like the disconnect between progressives in America and Black Americans on the issue of crime and policing. Most Blacks are actually in favor of more stringent policing than the enlightened leftists who constantly demonize the cops in this country. Somehow the woke always seem to believe that they know better than the people whose interests they supposedly represent.
Giggling at all this presumed sophistication and knowledge about China. Hey Yah, quick question: How many public demonstrations did the Chinese govt report in 2008? Why did they stop reporting after there were over 100,000 that year? Huh.
Noticed I did not claim we should overthrow them, I claimed they should. Or not. But we should de-couple utterly.
Yes, true. Revolution is in our DNA. We are a nation who overthrew our oppressors. Live and let live unless and until that infringes upon others' sovereignty. What would constitute an infringement upon sovereignty? When enough people feel their quality of life and freedoms have deteriorated to the point that dying would be better than living (as in the women of Iran, the young people in Hong Kong and Taiwan, the people of Sri Lanka, Venezuela, etc.). I think we will see the more egalitarian systems we all hope for in the next few generations, IF they don't have to suffer first to learn what it means to be free.
C'mon, Scott D...yes, in 1990 we thought engaging with the Chinese would liberalize them...but that hasn't happened. If anything, conditions are worsening, from what I can tell. What our Chinese friends learn when they come here is that we are a nation in decline, and that virtually every American can be bought, often at a low low price.
Xi Xingping evidently spent lots of time in the US, making friends with, among others, Joe Biden...now Xi is on the way to becoming the world's dictator, and Joe is his paid lap dog. So how did that "exchange" work out?
"I work at a university" There's your problem! No kidding, at this point, the Ameican university is the place where critical thought and free inquiry go to die. Wake up.
Agreed, the benefits are all for them. Meanwhile, it's not just the Chinese. We are flooded with Indians who abuse our immigration system at every level. Result? Corporate IT salaries have stagnated for 30 years. Saddest is your idea that we will change them - they are changing us. Wake up. The Chinese have a 100 year plan that began in 1949, and the goal is for them to become the global hegemon and displace us. They are fighting at 'total war' against us, on every level possible already except for openly shooting at each other.
You should know that many of them, unfortunately, are recruited as spies by the CCP. Many of the nicest, friendliest, hardest-working students. They don't want to be spies. They like the USA & that's why they are here.
But the CCP calls them & says "If you don't spy for us, we will put your parents & grandparents in China into jail." It is horrible. But unfortunately that's what the CCP does. All US research gets sent directly to the CCP.
I hope you aren't doing important scientific research. Because that research will be used by the Chinese military to shoot nuclear weapons at us in the future.
Complete and total nonsense, but sadly this is the state of American discourse on China these days. I suggest you read about the recently ended China Initiative. One of the most glaring conclusions was how little actual espionage we found in academia, although we did end up harassing scores of Chinese academics for administrative lapses.
Ironically in part due to things like the China Intiative, increasing numbers of Chinese American academics have been returning to China in recent years. A comparable example of a country shooting itself in the foot might've been Germany kicking out its Jews during World War 2.
As far as I can tell, ethnic Chinese have made enormous contributions to STEM in America so the benefits are hardly one sided as you seem to allude to below. Part of the reason why America is in the position it finds itself in in the global semiconductor battle is because of ethnic Chinese who either founded or cofounded critical companies like Nvidia or Lam Research.
The decoupling that you propose has already started to occur due to misguided initiatives like the recently ended China Initiative which harassed scores of academics of Chinese descent mostly over administrative lapses rather than actual espionage. Many Chinese people already feel the geopolitical chills due to deteriorating China-US relations. My gut feeling is that this decoupling will ultimately be to China’s advantage and America’s detriment in the global competition over the commanding heights of the 21st century.
Maybe there's a parallel to how Germany kicked out its Jews during World War 2 and American STEM benefitted?
This is a complex issue. We must separate the people of our countries from the governments of our countries, yet we cannot. They are intertwined. In the US we are free to oppose our government without interference (something that is eroding). In China, such opposition or even criticism is not possible, thus it is difficult to trust. I agree that deteriorating US-China relations is not a good thing, but I don't think the outcome will be to America's disadvantage in the long-term, maybe in the short term, yes. The heart of America, in its people, will always rise to the occasion. I just hope it is before we suffer rather than after. As I said in a previous comment, revolution is in our DNA, and you can't say that about any other country in the world. We do not fear throwing off oppression.
That's what makes us so important to the evolution of the planet. If the American experiment fails, we will all fail, but we can take a page or two or three out of the playbook of other countries. We evolve together (and I mean the people) or we go down with these corrupt governments.
So maybe someone on here can help the Mom set up an art exhibit of the drawings to bring attention to the situation and maybe sale the ones that are not to personal since she is on government assistance? Would be one way her son could help provide for her since he can't do it in person. I heard the Verdict podcast about this and the one take away is that being quiet about it for a decade and letting diplomats do their job hasn't worked. Maybe it is time to make some noise and shine a never ending light on it like the cell he is being kept in.
This only helps point out what so many already know. The government will sacrifice you for trade or a chance to get a news story about how great they are making relations with other countries. The other is that although not perfect, the US legal system is not as bad as the wokesters would have you believe. It is actually the ability of morally corrupt people to get elected that makes our system not function as intended. People saying my desires and beliefs out weight the written code of law.
Big difference here. Britney was guilty of her crime and Swidan is not. Anyone who thinks Britney wasn't a priority because of race and lesbian choice is delusional. The State Department under any administration is pretty much useless and is corrupt from the inside.
I would suggest a 20 percent tariff on all Chinese goods until our people are set free. Do we need their crap, NO! We do anything not to offend a communist, ruthless, deranged, and self serving elite communist structure. Yet, we will screw our own people over and over again and call it progress. But, you get what you vote for, watch Chicago that just elected another woke mayor.
Biden needs to step up. Or have Kackles give speeches to the Chinese until their brains scramble and they agree just to shut her up. Either way, this is unfortunately what you can expect from out government these days.
Sadly, tariffs don't actually work like most people think they do, and other more difficult (and therefore less politically visible) means are necessary. Tariffs are ultimately simply consumption taxes on the buyers, and when it comes to cheap crap like Walmart sells that won't affect retail customers - Walmart will simply raise ALL prices on similar non-Chinese goods and pocket the difference. At the industrial level tariffs don't really help either except on highly fungible (i.e. interchangeable) materials, but they screw over users of component products whose only source is in China - and such users (unless they're Apple) have no clout to get such items made anywhere else. I own a manufacturing company, I know whereof I speak - I'd love to be able source certain parts from anywhere but China, but the final point of assembly on many unique things is China (even if 90% of the rest of the part was made in the US or elsewhere and merely shipped to China for final work). For goods like these, tariffs make the US Treasury a crapload of money, which comes right out of my pocket, not touching the Chinese at all.
If you really want to hurt Chinese exports, the best way is stop the freight subsidies authorized 20 years ago. Ever notice how cheap Chinese crap from Amazon arrives at your doorstep with almost no freight? The US taxpayer footed the bill. And this is true for many countries. I cannot easily export anything overseas due to the freight costs, but almost anyone in the world can send TO the US for pennies on the dollar compared to what it costs us to export. The US taxpayer subsidizes cheap imports by footing the freight bill. That's criminal, and stopping that nonsense would also torpedo the ChiCom slave factories' pricing sweetheart deals with Walmart and others.
Thanks for this information. I will check it out. For what it is worth I gave up WalChina 30 years ago. My money actually goes further because I do not have to replace products as often.
That's because our government made some very poor decisions regarding China years ago naively thinking there would be no ramifications. In addition we have really greedy companies that would sell our souls to make a bigger profit still passing off expenses to American buyers when costs go up. I try everything I can not to buy products made in China. I am not in manufacturing but I think we should do everything we can to source from other countries.
They try to make the biggest profit they can, to benefit the CEO's, & still charge the consumer the same cost as what a US-made item costs in the store. They will charge whatever the consumer will pay.
With greeting cards: the least expensive ones are Made in USA (I always check the back!) and the most expensive $7 Greeting cards are Made in China. Because those are the ones with electronics or Papyrus fancy stuff glued on by slave labor. The plain & simple greeting cards are made in USA.
What Manufacturing Sector do you work in? What Industry?
but I 100% agree with you about the freight subsidies "de minimis". It costs pennies for Chinese slave labor factories to ship to USA, which US Taxpayer subsidizes the cost of that shipping but costs US factories a ton to ship out. This is something Congress needs to do. Change the law to stop subsidizing Chinese mail. They need to do it now. Yesterday.
Yes you are right. I do my absolute best to seek out not Made in China & small electronics is the toughest. I do look for Made in Japan, Made in Korea, Made in Taiwan electronics. But it's tough unfortunately. For people like me who really care.
I will (and often do!) happily spend 2-3 times the cost to buy a non-Chinese made item. Not everyone is like that though.
It's trickier than you might suppose because actually, lots of electronics that say "made in China" were really only "assembled in China" out of components made in many other countries. And vice versa too.
A single mid-range chip can go through 5-6 countries during manufacturing.
I think your perspective of what China sells to the US is a bit outdated. These days it’s increasingly high-tech products like DJI drones or CATL batteries. Chinese companies account for over 55% of the global market for EV batteries and companies like Ford and Tesla are both in discussions to license CATL’s world leading LFP battery technology.
Trying to decouple from China isn’t realistic because of its increasing prominence in various global supply chains. The notion of Chinese exports as being mostly cheap Walmart products is probably a decade or two behind the times. At the very least it ignores the substantial qualitative shift that's taken place over the past 10-15 years or so.
I manufacture electronics so I'm well versed in the high tech products made in China (and will add the caveat that in some things like chips, China doesn't have the good ones, they have to import them). The battery issue is one close to me, and a huge part of why China dominates on batteries is actually regulatory: our government won't let us make them here at costs that would permit them to be sold easily. We are blocked from mining the raw materials easily, the manufacturing itself is environmentally tricky enough that few want to go through the permitting processes, and yet... our government hands over cutting edge battery chemistry to the Chicoms. It's a disgrace.
DJI dominating the drones was equally a disgrace. Obama knew damned well that DJI was selling drones at a loss, with heavy ChiCom subsidies, and stealing US tech, but ignored it.
But we should be careful not to overstate the qualitative shift in Chinese manufacturing. It's better than it used to be, but it's incredibly fragile. Check out Peter Zeihan's analyses on China's manufacturing future.
and we need to do the most important thing (which no Dem or GOP politician will ever do!) which is to not allow Wall Street to invest into any Chinese company.
Wall St basically uses peoples's 401k's to enrich Chinese companies. This is why my 401k & husbands 401k is 100% US Treasury Bonds. Because I don't want my money used to fund the CCP.
I largely agree. But black men maintain that they have been treated like this in the US forever. And that bad mark on the prosecutor's record is real here too. Or more accurately their conviction rate, like it is a baseball stat. Now we are about to see how it works for a former president. Of course he will have the best criminal defense money can buy.
This is the sort of thing Amnesty International used to exist to remedy. But they seem to have lost their way long ago, like the ACLU and Southern Poverty Law Center. Consistency demands principles, and political partisanship and tribalism are inimical to principles.
The SPLC had an employee, a lawyer, arrested recently for domestic terrorism in Atlanta at that police training center they've been attacking. By the usual leftist standards that would make the SPLC a forbidden, censured organization. Except it doesn't apply, because the SPLC is a leftist organization.
Those entities have lost touch with the individuals they are supposed to champion and instead are all about the money, the virtue signaling, and the glorification of the cause.
Why supposedly sane people visit these despotic hellholes continues to elude me.
Yet despite stories such as this about the viciousness and brutality of Chinese communism, our globalist masters such as Cook, Dimon, Gates and the the rest of that deplorable gang of human garbage continue to bow and scrape to their Chinese masters and invest and buy products made by abused slave laborers. Well, why not, when we have a President who has taken Chinese cash and is in their pocket? These fiends even pontificate that the "Chinese model" may be better for us. Quelle surprise. You're really nothing but a serf with better toys.
And now, in keeping with their love of all things China, they're even trying to turn our cherished justice system into the "Chinese model." The article points out "It didn’t matter. In China, the criminal justice system is not really about crime or justice as much as it is a tool used by the powerful to shut down or scare off those who threaten their power." We saw that played out yesterday as a puppet NYC prosecutor indicted Trump on utterly farcical charges. You may hate Trump but you cannot doubt that he threatens the elites in ways that scare them to their very bones.
Have you been to Shanghai or Beijing or Shenzhen recently since zero-covid was abandoned or for that matter prior to covid breaking out? There’s nothing remotely obvious to the typical person that these places are despotic hellholes. Yeah, China isn’t politically free to the same extent that America is and if you engage in activity that challenges the CCP there will almost certainly be consequences. But most people just live their lives in peace.
It's interesting that you reference the China model because I’m currently reading a book by political scientist Daniel Bell with that exact title. I think he makes a persuasive case for why democracy in the sense of one person one vote isn’t necessarily the best or least bad form of governance, contrary to what Winston Churchill might’ve famously opined. Americans tend to value procedural fairness above the actual end result. What matters isn’t whether or not the president who ends up being elected is competent. The most important thing to Americans is the idea that each person should get to cast a vote for the presidency.
Bell makes the argument that by contrast China can be viewed as a political meritocracy with meritocracy at the top, experimentation in the middle and democracy at the bottom at the grassroots village level. This is something that most Americans aren’t aware of or appreciate. We expect our leaders to demonstrate their competency in every domain from business to science to economics. Yet, we toss all of that aside when it comes to our elected political officials and are perfectly content to the accept the results of a mob popularity contest highly susceptible to demagogues as long as procedural fairness has been indulged. Bell questions the wisdom of that slavish worship of the idea of one person one vote and I think reasonable Americans should as well.
Say what you will about China’s political system, but there’s no way that someone like Donald Trump would ever rise to the highest position of power in the CCP. In China people have to prove themselves at lower levels of government before being elevated to the top. For instance, Xi Jinping served in Hebei, Fujian, Zhejiang and Shanghai before being promoted to the 9-man Politburo Standing Committee back in 2007.
1) you seem to straddle the fence a lot. Using "we" to mean American as if you are but robustly presenting the Chinese POV. There are difficulties in US and China relations. I think it is, and has been, a be careful what you wish for situation as to America's desire for relations with China. 2) as I have opined elsewhere I think the post-WWII dream of a globally connected world to reduce the risk of another world war has been carried out largely at the expense of, and on the back of, the US and to her detriment. It was foolhardy to think that vastly different cultures would or should abandon them for western values. But oddly you are taking the same stance with your to the glory of China POV. 3) your point about one-person one-vote in the US and a person like Donald Trump never achieving power in China is interesting. I guess you miss the significance but China is a single party system with, as you acknowledge with the Trump statement, a highly regimented structure to select and elevate leadership. In other words, no one's vote matters. Decisions are made within the party. Of course people there just live their lives in peace because resistance is futile as the Borg say. You simply prefer a rigid, authoritarian government. Messy as things are here, I disavow the Chinese system. Wholeheartedly disavow.
The notion that a one-party state is bad is vastly overstated in my opinion. Singapore has effectively been a one-party stated ruled by the PAP since its independence in 1965. Japan is often held up as an erstwhile democracy, but apart from 1993-1994 and 2009-2012, the LDP has been in power continuously since 1955. Japan is virtually a one-party state.
There’s a part of me that thinks that life in either Japan or Singapore would be superior to life in much of the US. So much for one-party states being bad.
I gather that you approve of a one party system. I do not. And IMO much of what what is wrong in the US is the breakdown of the two party system into a defacto single party system.
As Franklin famously observed, those who would trade liberty for security will end up with neither. Our friend Shen apparently would make that trade without hesitation.
The irony is that the founding fathers were well aware of the dangers of mob rule and the need for competent leaders. In The Republic, Plato famously advocated for rule by philosopher-kings. One might argue that China today is run by technocrat-kings.
The sacralization of democracy in the form of one person one vote is more of a post WW2 phenomenon.
It's interesting that you attribute America's political malaise to it devolving into a one-party system. I’m currently reading a book by political scientist Daniel Bell which argues that China and Singapore are political meritocracies and that the downsides of the current American political system are because it sacralizes the notion of one person one vote at the expense of demanding competency among its political leaders. In other words, Americans seem to care far more that the process is fair than we do about the actual end result.
Part of the problem is that Americans believe that aspects of our political system like democracy in the form of one person one vote or trial by jury are so sacrosanct, we become blind to the possibilities that alternative political systems might have merit. My understanding is that in Japan there aren’t trials by jury like what we have in the United States. Yet, my personal opinion of the value of juries went down significantly in the aftermath of the OJ Simpson trial, when a racial demagogue like Johnny Cochrane managed to pander to the biases of the jurors and get an obvious murderer off the hook.
Personally, I’m not a fan of censorship and it’s the one area where I have major criticisms of the CCP. But as far the idea that democracy is the least bad form of governance as opined by Winston Churchill, I find that sentiment to be vastly overstated. I think that everything Americans presume to be sacred such as one person one vote or trial by a jury of one’s peers should be subjected to scrutiny so that we aren’t deluding ourselves into believing that these actually constitute the least bad form of governance out of a universe of possibilities.
I read your earlier post. I responded to it. You are repeating yourself. Calling China a political meritocracy is rich given that its people cannot call it anything but for fear of retribution. Basically you are saying American voters are too stupid to elect competent leadership. While I think there is a certain amount of validity to that at this particular point in time it is because many of them are, like you, particularly thd youth who have no life experience, captured by an ideaology and do not vote in their own self-interest. Additionally each party, at this point in time, is to some extent the opposite side of the same coin. We, citizens of the US, have experienced this before, and provided those who think like you do not win the scurrilous campaign now being conducted by the Democrats to solidify their power at any cost we will go through it again. Politicol parties evolve here. That is possible in a free society. China just went from allegiance to the world's last reugning monarch to allegiance to a brutal dictator and now a more benevolent one. The differences between my culture and yours are vast. You will never fully comprehend mine because are not able to understand it no matter how many books you read. You are culturally indoctrinated otherwise. I am culturally indoctrinated to aspire to a free society. Messy as that can be. Previously people here and in other western nations made the same argument in favor of Germany as you make about China. Except the buzzword was efficiency as opposed to meritocracy. When you subject your people to a dictatorship it is easy to make the trains run on time. But that does not justify a dictatorship. I do agree that the notion of comparison is wrong. You are entitled to be governened in your country as you accept. I am entitled to be governed by those I and my fellow citizens choose. We will only be forced to choose which is "best" if the push for one world government succeeds. I oppose that based on the all the eggs in one basket theory.
The real problem with the United States is that we don't demand competency from voters. It isn't exclusively the candidates' faults that stupid and/or brainwashed voters vote for them. The other growing problem is the brazen fearlessness with which the media advances one party (Ds) over any other, because the media is populated almost exclusively by people who themselves are Ds. Trump was elected in spite of them, and they have worked tirelessly to destroy him using the same unscrupulous tactics with which they advance their cult agenda. That's where clear-eyed Americans see parallels to totalitarian states.
Life there is superior to life in China, which is why so many Chinese move to Singapore. I doubt Japan would let in a large amount of immigrants.
Sure, the same political party has been in power. But people there are free.
They are free to express their opinions. To protest. To state political opinions. To vote for whoever they want. To use the internet. No Great Firewall. People in Japan & Singapore can go on Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, etc. They can watch any show/movie they want I would argue that being able to access the open internet is one of the biggest benefits of freedom. Because then you get knowledge.
I was born in the USSR & my parents often tell me how they didn't have access to Western news sources/media. All they heard was USSR propaganda. Other than the Voice of America, which my dad listened to, but not everyone could get access to it.
You must've forgotten about Japan bashing during the 1980s when Americans hated the Japanese and directed much of the same vitriol against them back then that we do against the Chinese today. How quickly memories fade. There were plenty of Americans who were gung-ho about buying American and adamant that they wouldn't buy Japanese.
I was actually going to write a snarky retort but I found you defense of the barbaric Chinese Communist system so chilling I wanted to address it head on. The Chinese citizens are spied on and cowed. Their lives are relatively stable unless they rock the boat. But even that can be snatched away at the whim of the Party. No normal person wants to live that way. Certainly not any normal American. To the contrary of your belief, the Chinese Communist party is hardly a "meritocracy." It doesn't reward normal ability, but, rather, fealty to the oppressive system that maintains an iron grip on the Chinese people. The Chinese system is not a government; no more than the mafia and its party congresses are nothing more than the Apalachian Convention writ large; except without the honor of the mafia dons.
I truly hope you are not living in the US, more so that you're not a US citizen. America - or what remains of it - is still the only bulwark against the soulless one world system you seem to cherish. And there remain enough of us, I believe, who will fight and die to keep the light of liberty alive.
Well, you seem to be acknowledging that I'm a human being instead of adamantly insisting as in a prior comment that I’m a snake or something, so I guess this seems like a promising start.
No one claimed that the Chinese government was perfect and as Daniel Bell argues, part of the evolution of governance in China will be to ensure that the CCP becomes more meritocratic over time. But if you look at its track record post-Mao, it’s been remarkably competent. There’s a clear body of work spanning over 4 decades of tremendous growth and increasing prosperity.
I’m not sure how you decided that you were going to speak on behalf of all “normal” people, but plenty of people in China find the CCP to be reasonably competent and are looking to incrementally evolve the political system there rather than overthrow it. I find in my own social circles that many Chinese studying or working in the US increasingly find China to be a more appealing place long-term than America, especially for those who didn’t grow up in the US.
I despise the Chinese Communists. I think people who make excuses for them are dupes. But to the extent you might want to export that evil to our own shores that would change things The US Constitution is a bulwark against the one-party evil that you appear to defend. There is simply zero room for compromise or discussion on that issue.
And to think that us Americans stereotype those Chinese communists as being slavishly devoted to ideology while Americans embrace the light of pragmatic rationality!
Rose-colored glasses here perhaps. China had Mao and then passed laws to try to prevent that cult of personality and got Deng but swung back a bit with Xi. America may have a cult of personality but we’ve never had a genocidal maniac as leader.
My husband goes on business trips but he always says NO to business trips in dangerous countries, basically anywhere you could be taken prisoner against your will (China, Russia, Arab countries, etc). Instead, he'll do virtual Zoom meetings. Much safer.
Did you realize that Zoom was founded by a Chinese American named Eric Yuan and that despite it being an American company most of its engineering team is based in China? I guess you'll have to boycott that too now in addition to everything else Chinese.
Your probability of being taken prisoner against your will in China is probably comparable to your probability of being shot by a cop in this country. But we know how libs love exaggerating the idea that cops are the greatest threat to Black men in America.
If this site corrects the caption I will read the article. The scandal is not an American scandal. It is a scandal owned by the Leftist totalitarian countries where innocent people are imprisoned. The Left in America is now attempting to bring this @#$&ing practice to America. This is now the most pressing American scandal. It has been brought to America by the political party supported by the proprietors of this site.
Disagree. Sure the government of China, and the other countries holding our citizens, are ultimately responsible. But the lack of action on behalf of Mr. Swiden is an American scandal. It’s a scandal of our government and of our media who should be giving us regular updates on all 50+ of our citizens held in other countries. Shining a light is the best means of accountability. TFP has pushed this case into the light. Would that our national media would do the same for all.
Well technically that is what our federal government via the State Department and others should be doing. Which is further proof that we are expendable to said government.
Yes, agree, we should still shine a light; however, caution is the best action when traveling out of the West. I travel overseas a lot. We were in Beijing during the early 1980s with an American corporation so felt some degree of protection. It was also a very different government. They didn't even have potable water in China back then, either; that's how much they've changed. There is personal responsibility, and then there is government responsibility. I had an experience once in Ireland during a pat down because of a metal buckle on my blouse (while Hilary Clinton was in country, so heightened security). The agents were patting me quite a lot (underwire bra), and I suggested I would remove my shirt if that helped, and they told me quite sternly that if they wanted me to do that, they would state it. I said nothing further. It wasn't until I was walking back out (and they were chatting casually to each other) that I realized I wasn't free at all while I was in there. That is always something to consider.
Agree. This is not an American scandal. This is a political scandal. When you travel for extended periods to other countries, which I have done and still do, you are no longer a free American. You must keep that in mind. There are many countries I just would not set foot in.
"Too many Americans, especially young Americans, think they will be respected abroad because they are American."
too many young Americans lack the most basic knowledge of what America is, and so they expect other places to be like America too. That the Chinese would grab and arrest an american tourist for no reason isn't surprising. That Americans would be so clueless as to travel there, now that is truly shocking.
I too hold the unpopular opinion that actually this is entirely the fault of the guy who wanted to buy flooring for "next to nothing". Who did he think would make it, and what would they be paid?
The definition of "leftist" is subjective, but China is a collectivist, totalitarian society that openly embraces and advocates Communist ideology (in practice, the economic theories are not really in place).
And in the news today black activist, Moore of Austin, TX thinks prisons should be abolished and that murderers and robbers should clean houses instead. The USA has pandered to black misbehavior for too long. And in another article this morning- in San Fran a white tech entrepreneur, 43 was stabbed to death....
Except black men have faced an Iron Triangle here for generations. unless they were lucky enough to draw a competent public defender or court-appointed attorney. Atticus Finch most are not. But as was oft said yesterday, two wrongs do not make a right and the fix for what I allege is not to ignore crime. In.other Austin news, US Army Sgt. Daniel Perry's trial for shooting and killing an armed protester who pointed a rifle at him as Sgt. Perry's vehicle was surrounded by hostile protesters continues. He was doing a side-gig with Uber during the summer of hate, I mean love. The former Travis County DA declined to prosecute and the investigating officer is to be a defense witness. But the Soros elected DA, Jose Garza, reinstated the charge. You all should check it out. The testimony is stunning. He does have good lawyers though. But none of us are safe at this point.
"Except black men have faced an Iron Triangle here for generations"
Like OJ Simpson did? Like Jesse Smallett did? Like Bill Cosby did (he's free)?
Rich people can afford better lawyers than poor people, regardless of race. Don't make everything about race. Don't feed this preposterous idea that blacks are helpless victims. Look at Obama, Oprah, Will Smith, and don't make everything about race.
I think it's hilarious that Queen Oprah found it fit to leave Chicago SEVEN years ago - she certainly saw the writing on the wall....she's sitting fat'n'happy in one of the whitest places on earth : )
Don't lecture me. I know that of which I speak. My comment is far from "make[ing] everything about race". To the contrary it is addressing one specific aspect of race - treatment of black men in the US criminal justice system. But actually you are somewhat correct in that it is really about poverty. Plenty of poor white trash has suffered the same result at the hands of the same system. Just statistically a larger percentage of the black population was historically poor. Denying the obvious is .ot a good position to be in.
There is no need to racialize this or any other topic, and no topic is helped by being viewed through a racial lens.
Fact is, you (we) have no idea whether blacks are disproportionately harmed (or helped) by criminal justice. To answer that question, you'd need to control for a million variables. Or, you could simply ignore the unmeasurable (race) and focus on the measurable (resources). Voila --- the world is a better truer place.
To the contrary. I do know. While it is wrong to view ALL things through the lens of race, it is equally wrong to say that race never matters. But you carry on in your echo chamber.
It does feel like a rat-fxck doesn’t it? So glad I moved out of NYCity…the murder & mayhem seem distant to me in the country- can catch a breathe, feel sane.
They don't hate you, they just view you as someone they can take money from for their more important schemes and if you can't provide it they are indifferent.
But yet the Biden administration went all out to get that thankless woman basketball player out. I wonder why? I’m sorry but I cannot stand Biden. He is a blatant hypocrite. So many of them are. We should be fighting to get them all out. Not just one who is politically expedient.
"In China, the criminal justice system is not really about crime or justice as much as it is a tool used by the powerful to shut down or scare off those who threaten their power. "
Same in the USA, unfortunately.
Big T
A foot and a mile both measure distances, but only a fool or a liar would claim they are the same.
Hillary on all accounts committed serious felonies and was acquitted before she was investigated. Trump has had witch hunt after witchhunt inflicted on him and has now been indicted for something roughly equal to jaywalking.
And Jan. 6th protesters have been held in some cases nearly two years for misdemeanors much less serious than things BLM protesters were released for the next day. You have with the Jan. 6th protesters people in jail for many months WHO DID NOT EVEN SET FOOT IN THE CAPITAL, and in the BLM case arsonists not even arrested.
No, we are not as bad as China, but we are plainly headed in that direction. If you are an HONEST Liberal you have to admit that is obvious.
As usual, I have a different take on all of this. Russia, Iran, China and all of the communist nations are brutal and gruesome and we all know that. So why would anyone with half a brain visit of them?
I have little or no sympathy for anyone who is scarfed up in these countries and put in one of the hell hole prisons. Would I like them release? Yes, most of them but that anti-American basketball player could have stayed and rotted in a Russian jail for all I cared. I wonder if her experience changed her mind about the US. I doubt it.
If you don't want to end up in a CCP prison. Don't go there. Go to England or Australia or better yet, Portugal where they have wonderful food, wine and beaches and come back from your stay smiling and happy. Don't go to CCP or Russia and rot in one of their hell hole prisons where the food is crappy and you are beaten. There are no beaches or wine and you come back, if you come back, you are broken in spirit and health without a smile on your face.
Another observation that I am sure will draw the ire of some of the people I have known and liked on this BBS. I am dead set against the Peace Corps and church mission trips to impoverished countries. We have enough problems here in the US that need attention. Take foreign aid for example. Why do we send money to countries who hate us when we need that money here in the US or better yet don't spend it at all. I know it is a drop in the bucket but use it for debt reduction.
Well I know I've pissed enough of you off so I'll quit. I eagerly await the tar and feathering.
I'm afraid I had the same reaction: traveling to a totalitarian country is a huge risk. And this man wasn't going there for any morally significant reason (to help someone or visit a family member); he was trying to save money on building materials. I wonder if he stopped to consider the condition of the people who were laboring to produce those materials so cheaply.
Yep. For those of us old enough to remember the "Iron Curtain" (I had a kids Christmas album that had a song about Santa Claus not being able to visit the Soviet Union because of this), we understand that Russia and China are still communist countries whose governments don't put the same value on personal freedom (the way the US is going, not sure when I'll be saying the same thing about America).
I remember the "Iron Curtain." As a child that reference terrified me. That, and Nikita banging his shoe on the desk boldly exclaiming, "We will bury you."
My heart breaks for his mother.
And all in pursuit of cheap labor....
I agree
There is no reason to go to dangerous countries like this
My husband has respectfully refused business/work trips to dangerous countries. He just tells the company he doesn't feel safe traveling to xyz country. He does Zoom online virtual meetings instead. I would never let him go. It's not worth the risk.
Good for you. My wife and I lived in a country where we went to sleep with the sound of gunfire. It's no pleasant.
You lived in Chicago?
yes i agree..for the most part. although it is important to know how people are living under duress so reporting is important. saving $$ on flooring is not..do not take drugs into countries where death is the penalty. if you waver. watch Midnight Express.. that should make you cancel your ticket
Well done, Lonesome.
Share a bottle of port?
Any time.
Totally agree. Why would anyone with a brain cell go to these benighted places?
Tar and feathering?
Screw that.
Hosannahs and laurel leaves.
Lonesome,
I think Americans should go to some of these other countries to see first hand what they are like and meet a few people.
BUT, go there with some humility and your eyes wide open - don't do things that will get too much attention or break their laws, and respect their customs. Check with the US Gov about security warnings. That is, DON'T be an Ugly American. If you can't do that, don't go.
I disagree. The WSJ reporter arrested in Russia did nothing wrong and neither did the young man in China.
China is murdering Uigurs because they are Uigurs and Muslims. If you go to these countries and act like a saint and they want to make a propaganda example out of you, you are screwed. I would never, never go to one of these countries.
Please don't take this wrong but I think you are being naïve.
I’m not a liberal. Hillary was not acquitted. Comey refused to indict. No doubt he was wrong and motivated by politics rather than the law. There are serious problems with justice and politics in America, but if America was China, Trump would have been eliminated and we wouldn’t be arguing.
You are not wrong, but can we agree that we all want to keep this nation from becoming an illiberal Bully State like China?
It is becoming more like a foot and a yard in the US. The J6 detainees are political prisoners pure and simple.
There isn’t a single judge in all of Communist China who can match your average Democrat judge in terms of corruption and evil.
Huh? I thought the problem was that judges let too many people off to easily, not sentence them to long prison sentences based on sketchy evidence?
Based on sketchy evidence or no evidence of any crime?
Kevin Durant? loses his mind?
I am a big time winner!!!!
As Mao said, “Kill the chicken to scare the monkey”. We are living through the American cultural revolution: https://yuribezmenov.substack.com/p/counter-the-cultural-revolution
It is older than Mao.
Yes it is deeply encoded on our primate beings.
The comment did not say the justice systems in the two countries are the same. Only that as in China, the US criminal justice system is used as a tool by the powerful. Anyone who denies that is a fool or a liar.
Exactly. The difference is one of degree, not of kind. And the US system gets worse by the day.
Yes. Quite a few people here have been at pains to point out that China's and America's legal systems don't operate identically--but why would they? They developed completely independently. Stressing the obvious differences between them risks missing the forest for the trees while evading what's really at issue; namely, the extent to which both justice systems are politicized and stack the deck in favour of the rich and powerful. In this respect, the parallels hardly flatter us as much as many would like to pretend.
Trump's case is instructive: he's the class traitor, the beneficiary of the system who got out of line and tried to do something for the little guy. The powerful had to make an example of him and have been pursuing their project relentlessly since 2016. Since they control academia, governmental institutions (including the DOJ) and the media it's not too much trouble for them, and it's in their interest. While the result was predictable it was also transparent; yet they're confident enough now in the unassailability of their position that, if they ever cared much about public opinion, they no longer do so, and in any event opinion can be censored and shaped as needed whenever it matters.
True, not the same, Terence. But it feels to me that we’re on a slippery slope in that direction, which would have been unthinkable 20 years ago.
huh?
The best way to secure compliance of an adversary is to destroy a smaller one.
...and in the USA the powerful make sure you know this by flaunting their power in The New York Times and on CNN. Media in America isn't actually owned by the state, but it might as well be. The control is exercised through corporate intermediaries, and everybody (or at least everybody in the one percent) gets rich.
No. Not true at all. American justice may be politicized in some cases (ala Trump). Defendants may suffer from poor representation in some cases.. But bribery of judges is essentially unheard of in America. Collusion between prosecutors and judges is essentially unheard of. Does misconduct happen? Sure. But it's so rare that it makes news when it does.
There is simply no comparison between American courts and Chinese courts. The former exists to at least try and arrive at the truth; the latter exists to protect the ruling regime.
Sorry, the difference is one of degree, not of type.
"In the first comprehensive accounting of judicial misconduct nationally, Reuters identified and reviewed 1,509 cases from the last dozen years – 2008 through 2019 – in which judges resigned, retired or were publicly disciplined following accusations of misconduct. In addition, reporters identified another 3,613 cases from 2008 through 2018 in which states disciplined wayward judges but kept hidden from the public key details of their offenses – including the identities of the judges themselves."
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-judges-misconduct/
"A former local district court judge in Arkansas was arrested today in Little Rock on criminal charges related to his alleged solicitation of sex in exchange for agreeing to take action on a criminal case pending before his court.."
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-judge-arrested-bribery-and-obstruction-justice
You are naive.
You're making my exact point. American judges are punished when they significantly veer from some standard of justice. Your examples demonstrate that our system does actually work -- no perfectly, but it works.
Removing a judge for "misconduct" in China is unherd of, unless the judge starts acquitting people.
China may be more tolerant of corruption of the 'right kind'. But don't think that the list above is all the corruption that goes on in the US - these are just the ones that got caught.
Honestly, this is an idiotic comment. You should go live - not as an American, but as a regular subject - in a communist country and THEN tell us what you think. A perfect example of the deadly combination of a spoiled American’s ignorance and arrogance. This explains a lot of the crazy things that are slowly destroying the US.
I spent a bit of time in E. Germany, Czechoslovakia, and Hungary back in the day. Yes, they were very oppressive. Our system is not as bad as those, but it is definitely going rapidly in the wrong direction.
You spent “time” there as an American with dollar-filled pockets and you were lucky nothing happened to you. Many foreigners actually believed communist countries to be like heaven; their dollars went incredibly far and all the pretty girls were crazy for them - for the same $ reason. You could come and go as you pleased, you could shop at the special stores selling for dollars. You were like some kind of demi-god in a country of slaves. You have no clue whatsoever what it means to be born, raised and live at the whim of a communist regime or any other dictatorship. Not to mention that E. Germany, Czechoslovakia and Hungary were the “Cadillacs” of the Soviet block.
Negative. I spent time in East Bloc countries under communism. I had virtually no money, and I was often shunned because it was dangerous to talk to a Westerner. I never found a "specialty store", not that I had money for it, and everything was scarce. There were no "Cadillacs" in the Soviet Bloc. The fear was palpable. BigT is right - we're not there yet, but we're going in that direction.
Give me a break. “Virtually no money” means one thing: hard currency, the kind that people in communist countries didn’t have because having it was a serious crime. The fact that you don’t know the difference between communist Central Europe and the rest of the block says everything. There’s a special place in hell for ignorant and hypocritical westerners visiting the communist world on “virtually no money” and pretending that they’ve lived the hardship and they know all about it. And there weren’t “specialty stores”, just stores where you needed dollars to shop. They didn’t look like much at all to any westerner, but they had secret police watching it in case a local would try to shop there. Another thing that you don’t seem to have noticed in your tourist days.
You seem to know more about Sea Sentry's experience than he does. Presumably your confidence is rooted not in what you've read but in having actually visited and perhaps lived in all the same places he mentions; otherwise, the deeper insight and expertise you're implicitly claiming would be fraudulent, yes? Buy even if such wisdom and experience were yours, and you aren't simply spouting hot air, how would this translate into a relevant rebuttal of his own perceptions and understanding? On what logical ground should we accept your contemptuous dismissal of them as warranted?
Besides being aggressive and implying you know more than I do, I'm not sure what your point is. "A special place in hell...". Really? I was in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and East Germany. I did not live there, so I was indeed a tourist. They were all different culturally, but all very much police states. I detected no Cadillac among them. The Russian army was still rolling up the streets each night in Prague when I was there. The one exception was Yugoslavia, which as you know managed to forge its own path somehow between the West and the Soviet Union. It was reasonably tolerable if you could get past the pictures of Tito everywhere. And I mean everywhere.
I visited family in Prague in 1984. They lived pretty close to the bone, but were glad to see us. We visited a friend of theirs who lived just down the street from Wenceslas Square. After a few minutes they turned the radio up very loud, and she went to the shelf and brought down a small box. Inside was a bullet that got lodged in their wall in 1968.
So yes, mr know-it-all, I've seen it firsthand. Some of us can learn from the experience of others.
If what you’ve learned is that the American justice system is no better than the one in communist China, then it seems you need to travel and learn a bit more.
Thank you Andy. This hyperbole about the negative aspects of America does no good at all.
Just ask Donald Trump
Apples and oranges, my friend.
How, exactly?
Isn't that "apples and Orange Man"?
🔥
Indeed. See Bragg, Trump, April 4, 2023, NY.
I was a Peace Corps Volunteer in China a bit over ten years ago. I was friends with a young man my age in the town I was teaching who I knew smoked weed, which didn't bother me though I knew it was illegal. He was a funny guy, and early into my two years of being a volunteer English teacher, I found making friends very difficult, but he was an easy guy to talk to and hang out with. One day he disappeared. Over a year later, I was at a local restaraunt and suddenly I saw him at a table near me. He was dangerously skinny and missing many teeth. He told me that he had been arrested for marijuana posession, and had been beaten daily while in jail by both guards and other prisoners. The authorities released him when his mother paid them their life savings. This was a 22 year old local young man who's father had passed away years ago and whose mother was not wealthy, not even by the very low standards of that part of China.
We ate lunch together, though he wouldn't really make eye contact and barely ate. It took him the entire meal to really tell me what happened to him. After the meal, we walked out and I gave him my number again and told him to call me some time, that we should go get a beer like old times. He smiled just a little, the only time he did during that meeting, and said sure. I never saw him again.
The CCP are thugs, and stupid ones at that, pure and simple.
It seems the Peace Corps should not have any volunteers in China. They are potential political hostages.
PC no longer exists in China, it officially ended in 2020. I think the PC in China had real benefits. We met people who had never met an American. We taught English to people who had never heard a Westerner speak English in real life before. In a country where they hear mostly negative things about America from their governement, we were friendly faces who were there to help, and we were doing it for free. I am still in contact with many of my students who are eager to escape their bubbles and hear from outside voices about what the world around them. I think in a very real-world way, the PC was a great diplomatic program in China. I also think it was the right decision to end the program, for many reasons.
Thoughtful comments. Thanks.
Thank you for serving in the PC.
Please don’t thank me for that. I think it’s a worthwhile venture and it was the experience of a lifetime. But I did it by cihoice and for my own benefit, which does not mean it is not a good thing but also I don’t think anyone owes me any gratitude. I am grateful to the US tax payer for making it possible for well educated youth like I was to do it. No one owes us anything for it.
My son is a RPC having served in Benin, WA. My wife and I went to visit him. I was so incredibly impressed by what he was doing and by his peers. Those PCV I met I thought are among the very best of America. He has returned a very different young man. Service to people, regardless of where and how can and should be thanked and recognized.
I have some good friends who are RPCV from Benin. They’re good people. Thanks for your kind words
What is RPC?
Returned Peace Corps volunteer. I think I have that abbreviation correct.
Thanks.
RPCV. Yes :)
Next time, "thank you for your support."
I have a friend who was in a Chinese prison for three years. She came home last summer. She lived in China, working for a company that teaches English there. She helped the teachers with their legal paperwork and whatnot. She was arrested out of the blue, at an airport on her way home for a visit. None of the charges against her were real. Her stories of her time there are absolutely horrific. The State Dept was involved, but I think the lawyer her family hired (for God knows how much money—he worked on her case for years) is who finally got her out.
I guess if she had been a basketball player who checked some “diversity” boxes (and even knowingly broke the law in the country she was visiting), maybe the U.S. would have traded a terrorist arms dealer for her freedom. But she was just an ordinary straight, white, cis female who did nothing wrong, so her family had to drain their bank accounts, raise funds, and rack up debts to get her out. She came home severely malnourished and obviously emotionally scarred, so they all get to pay that price as well. Never, ever will I travel to China or allow my children to.
arent straight and cis the same thing
No they're not. Straight means you're attracted to the opposite sex. "Cis" means that your "gender identity" matches your biological sex. In case you couldn't tell from the quotes, I consider the two quoted terms ridiculous anti-concepts that don't actually exist but for the delusions of some people. I'm providing information for its own sake.
"Cis" means that your "gender identity" matches your sexed body. So gays and lesbians can be "cis". TQ is insisting that good old fashioned sexual orientation is a "gender orientation" now. The sexed body you inhabit doesn't matter. How you perceive yourself in your head does. If you are gay or lesbian and have no interest in having sex with trans men (who are actually female) or trans women (who are really men!) you are transphobic.
China is a dangerous evil country. Travel there at your own risk. I’m more concerned with OUR broken justice system. Political prosecutions. Incarceration for years for misdemeanors-j6. IRS used to intimidate journalists. We have PLENTY of judicial problems here that need to be addressed.
China’s hardly a dangerous and evil country. It’s certainly not politically free to the same extent that America is. If you engage in activity that directly challenges the CCP there will almost certainly be consequences. But most people simply live their lives in peace. What evil country has spent decades uplifting hundreds of millions of its own citizens out of poverty and overseeing one of the greatest economic transformations in human history? What evil country has sent millions of its own people abroad in past decades to engage with and learn from the rest of the world?
China, like many countries in East Asia, has one of the lowest rates of violent crime in the world. The intentional homicide rate per 100,000 people is consistently below 1 on the mainland despite China being only a moderately developed country. Many Chinese I talk to point to high rates of crime in American cities as one of the factors that dissuades them from wanting to be in this country long term. Black on Asian crime in particular is something that the mainstream media has tended to downplay or ignore altogether.
I would argue that cities like Chicago or Detroit are dangerous places. Evil is progressive Alameda DA Pamela Price entertaining the possibility of no jail time for the gang members who killed Jasper Wu.
A country that harvests organs from living human beings might qualify as a little bit evil. A low crime rate doesn't make up for it.
You are mistaken. Low crime has to do with the population. Organ harvesting with the government. The two are not the same.
I'm pretty sure China harvests organs from executed prisoners rather than living ones, but maybe you have evidence to the contrary. In any case, I wasn't trying to get the conversation sidetracked by discussions of the ethics of organ harvesting.
The Chinese Government harvests organs from Falun Gong prisoners. Who are Alive when their organs are ripped out of their bodies.
I wish you were correct, but I fear you are not. If you're really interested there's plenty out there. You can start here: https://humanrightscommission.house.gov/events/hearings/forced-organ-harvesting-china-examining-evidence
"Last month, the American Journal of Transplantation – the top peer-reviewed publication on the subject – published a large-scale computational textual analysis of 2,838 Chinese-language articles published in Chinese academic journals between 1980 and 2015 which supports the inference that transplant surgeons in the People’s Republic of China (PRC) removed organs, including hearts and lungs, in violation of the internationally-accepted “dead donor” rule, i.e., before donors have been (or could be) declared “brain dead.”
Interesting to dig into potentially, but I don't agree with your tendentious assertion that this means they harvest organs from "living" prisoners.
What about the multiple Chinese doctors who describe doing so? Are they lying?
Those are fair comments I've heard expressed by many from other countries.
Yes. And let us also extend our thoughts, prayers, and hearts to those political prisoners held in the DC Gulag. America's shame.
And that American pols can actually do something about.
Very, very sad story.
I try never to buy Chinese-sourced stuff ever. Such small economic quibbling is the only real power that I have. But, of course, it's virtually IMPOSSIBLE not to buy Chinese-sourced stuff.
I try as well - in general stay away from Walmart, Target and other big box stores. Check labels- see if they say ‘Made in China’. DO NOT BUY.
What about a President who is "Made in China?"
Lowe's and Home Depot too.
Home Depot actually has a lot of US-Made stuff.
I read labels & I never buy Made in China. I do buy a lot of Made in USA stuff at Home Depot
Thanks for the info. Glad to hear that.
"Such small economic quibbling is the only real power that I have"
Hmmm, you could try voting for a president willing to impose tariffs on China and unleash our energy sector so corporations here could compete on a more fair basis. Oh wait, we did have a president who actually did that.
Did you vote for him or the the puppet whose sole goal seems to be knee capping our manufacturing sector to China's benefit?
You can shove your sarcasm where the sun don't shine, Internet bully-boy.
As it happens, I fully supported Trump's China policies.
"You can shove your sarcasm where the sun don't shine, Internet bully-boy"
My, my, sensitive aren’t we. It must have taken great courage for you to emerge from your safe space long enough to type out such a witty response, however I notice you didn’t answer my question. So sorry my dear, I won’t be shoving my sarcasm where you suggest because then I wouldn’t be able to poo on your hypocrisy.
I'm not particularly sensitive.
I just thought The Free Press was a place where adults congregated and talked about issues civilly—and occasionally changed their stances about issues. Guess I'm wrong.
Jesus, Tim, what the hell is wrong with you? Do you even have the first clue who Patrizia voted for? Do you know her personally? Who starts a conversation like that anyway?
Nice accusations without evidence. Did you confuse the replies section of Substack with Twitter?
OK, Patrizia and Timothy are in timeout for 15 minutes.
I'm not a fan of Biden & I voted for Trump
But I have to say, one thing Biden is doing a decent job is, fighting back against China
He did keep the tariffs & he passed the CHIPS act. There is much more that needs to be done. But he's altogether doing ok in this regard.
WalMart shoppers paid for those tariffs. Not China.
Are you a Walmart shopper Lee? If so, please tell me what prices went up as a result of Trumps tariffs. The fact is no one at Walmart or any other retailer noticed any change in prices until Biden became president. Now, because of Bidenflation, EVERY shopper, home buyer, credit card holder… is paying more and getting less.
https://b100quadcities.com/walmart-is-raising-its-prices-due-to-trumps-china-tariffs-heres-a-big-list-of-items/
I picked the link that actually printed the items on Trump's first tariff increase..
You provided a list of products subject to the tariffs. I asked for actual price increases. If prices increased 25% as Walmart’s Director of Global Affairs suggested in the article, it shouldn’t be too hard to find evidence. It seems Walmart was couple of years early and a president short with its prediction.
Do you actually believe that WalMart would have swallowed that increase? Really? WalMart doesn’t bear the cost of anything. If they did we wouldn’t have seen their prices increase in 2022.
The tariffs on China are good & should be increased more.
Biden's Inflation is a direct result of him giving $$$ BILLLIONS $$$ excessively in "COVID stimulus" 3-4 times, to many people who didn't need the money. Including wealthy people. People spend too much, inflation goes up. there are people who unfortunately buy more than they need, buy garbage they don't even want, with money they don't have. People who don't know how to save money. This causes inflation.
I don't ever buy Made in China. And I don't buy garbage. You buy garbage, it breaks immediately, go re-buy more garbage, it's a cycle where you end up spending more money. I buy Made in USA, good quality. It lasts.
Same here. I do not buy Made in China. If country of origin is not listed, I don't buy the product. I am particularly cautious with online purchases. I verify that the product is not made in China.
Check out: https://www.usalovelist.com/
It's a great resource
And we let this nation send 300k students to study in our universities and 10s of thousands more work in our research labs. Any sane, coherent nation would cancel all visas with such a hostile nation. Get this if you get nothing else. The Progressive/Marxist victory is in part based on two very important ideas. First, that the individual is secondary to the collective. Anything can be done to a single individual in service to the collective. Second is that the very idea of the 'nation state' is anachronistic and morally flawed at some basic level. They have succeeded in brainwashing most Americans with these ideas at an ambient level, like it may not be something most could overtly state but most Americans are suspicious of individualism and nationalism at this point.
Which is how this happens...
You make a very good and very important point most are missing: it is called de-individuation.
“First, that the individual is secondary to the collective. Anything can be done to a single individual in service to the collective.”
This is a very, very dangerous thing indeed. Most dangerous in that it doesn’t apply to those who wish to wield it. They are the new elite (the educated upper middle class) who put themselves above the collective and brand them with names. As the governments of these countries do.
It happens when America's "leadership" class is more loyal to their Chinese masters than to the American people.
Except they cannot exist without a favorable nation state. That is what we are witnessing now - the values, traditions, even language of the individual being overwritten by the national overlords.
Ding, ding, ding! Yup. The incoherence is startling once you see it. Sort of like pointing out to a feminist that the horrible, patriarchal west built the modern world that gave her a chance to even think about "equality".
I work at a university and believe having students from China is ultimately to our long-term benefit. They get to see what life is like here, they make friends with Americans, etc. If they return to China, they return with a less hardened attitude, which can only be beneficial in the long term. Is it going to change things in China immediately? No. But, over time, it can help.
This is what people were saying forty years ago. China didn't change and it isn't our responsibility to change them.
"I work at a university and believe having students from China is ultimately to our long-term benefit"
Yea, like granting them WTO status. Chinese citizens are nothing more than nails and anyone trying "to change things in China" ends up on the blunt end of the CCP hammer.
I begin to see that the post-WWII of an inter-connected globe to reduce the likelihood of another world war is naive and fraught with peril.
Yup. And to the rests of the world we look like an empire. And given that we've thrown 80 coups and have been the most militaristic nation on the planet since WWII, who can we say they are wrong? Much of the world isn't a willing participant in the "Western Liberal Rules Based Order" - and why would they be? We are a bully and an unreliable, self-interested actor on the world stage. The current admin is so drunk on their moral superiority and vision of themselves as running the world that they will start WWIII if they don't watch themselves. And there is a very good chance we'd lose such a war today.
Yes, but over here, those students are free. Over there, we are not. My ex-husband was in Beijing 1980s with an American helicopter company. Very different government and country back then. They didn't even have potable water at the time; that's how far they have come industrially, literally on the backs of their people. We watched human beings construct huge buildings without machinery. It was unbelievable. When you are in China, you are not free. You are not even an individual. Americanisms do not matter there. Caution and personal responsibility is absolutely warranted when traveling anywhere abroad, but especially in countries whose values are very different from ours.
Are Chinese students free here? There is evidence that China is conducting mass surveillance operations on Chinese students in Canada and the US:
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/vancouver-has-at-least-one-secret-chinese-police-station-civil-rights-group-says-1.6183853
Of course, there is the official Chinese denial:
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/china-accuses-canada-of-smearing-over-secret-police-stations-1.6307542
Let's see: Who to believe? A European Based NGO?
https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/about-us
Or, the Chinese Communist Party?
I agree that Chinese students who come to the US are better off than in China. But thinking we can fix China solely through bringing Chinese students here, while keeping a very laissez-faire attitude about trade, and while ignoring China's human rights violations, is naive.
Ya, of course they are. I don't care. Send them all home, including all the confucius institute staff.
Yes, the students are free while on US soil, subject to US laws, as we are over there (also subject of this article) until their own governments intervene to help them or check them (as is the case you are making). US citizens are free to do as they choose in other countries without government interference or checking (hence Brittany Griner making a very bad error, as did the coaches responsible for her). Judging whether Chinese students are better off over here is... a judgment... only they can make. The Chinese culture is centuries old and infamous rich in culture. I don't think they need "fixing". They are evolving like everyone else, and we have our own human rights violations to deal with. Exposing students to differences in any country, which social media now does in epic proportions, is also a way. We must respect the people of other countries to live as they choose unless and until they ask for our help.
First of all, I don't need a lesson on Chinese history or a talking down to about the obligation to respect people in other countries. I'm a Canadian/American. Like many Scots-Canadians, I'm proud of Norman Bethune's contribution to China.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4zYgGYbqHQ
Regarding our obligation to respect the people of other countries, I agree. But I do not take the globalist neo-liberal view that we must respect people of other countries while ignoring the obligation to respect the citizens in one's own country (Canada and the US in my case.) The United States and Canada are full of people who are poor, out of work, lack access to medical care and education. While I believe we do not necessarily need to choose between domestic and international human rights issues, there is a limit to how much we can accomplish internationally.
I do not agree that people in China and people who travel to China are free. This statement "US citizens are free to do as they choose in other countries without government interference", which you make above, is false.
Chinese human rights violations:
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2021/country-chapters/china
Americans and Canadians are not safe when they travel to China.
US State Department memo on travel to China:
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/china-travel-advisory.html
Canadian government statement on travel to China:
https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/china
Both governments advise exercising a high degree of caution on travel to China due to the enforcement of "arbitrary laws".
So, regardless of China's rich culture, which goes back to before the Neolithic, the current state of China is not good, and I would not want to travel there.
Americans, Canadians, and virtually anyone else, are not "free" while in China.
If you are not sure, maybe ask the Dalai Lama.
I don't care. Chinese should overthrow their govt instead of buying into the corrupt bargain the CCP has made with its people. That's their problem. And fyi, since we decided to help them build a modern, industrial economy over the past 40 years, we've made it impossible for the Chinese people to rise up.
Sorry but as I've been repeatedly pointing out, enlightened people like Kishore Mahbubani argue that most Chinese view the CCP as highly competent post-Mao, quibbles over zero-covid aside. There's no real desire among the people of China to overthrow the government, so I'm not sure why Americans keep obsessively pushing for it.
As our trade war with Japan during the 1980s demonstrated, even an erstwhile ally can still be viewed as an economic threat, so it's hardly likely that a change in the form of governance in China would somehow eliminate competition between the US and China.
Deng handled it very differently from Xi. If we had a Deng like leader, the world would be in a far better place in my view.
"most Chinese view the CCP as highly competent. There's no real desire among the people of China to overthrow the government"
Why wouldn't the Chinese people want freedom for themselves? Freedom to do as they please. No Great Firewall. No restrictions on what you say or do. To live like people in Singapore, Japan, South Korea live? Many Chinese have moved to Singapore recently. Why wouldn't they want China to be more like that? I'm actually asking from a position of curiosity.
Yes, there were leaders in between Mao and Xi and a drastic change in economic policy and progress, though authoritarianism still ruled the day (Tiananmen Square). Deng Xiaoping who began the unprecedented economic and industrial progress ("to get rich is glorious"), saw gross national product quadruple by 2000. While my ex-husband was in Beijing 1982, we watched people erecting huge buildings by hand. There was no potable water and only one major hotel, The Lido. The growth between 1980 and today is a staggering achievement. China has produced a middle class that rivals our own, so yes, they are as nationalist as we are. But, as in all places with millions of people under authoritarian rule, with a view to the freedoms and liberties of other countries, namely the US, it is a double-edged sword. There is a fine line between freedom and oppression.
Glenn, you stray a bit from your original good point. People overthrowing a government is not easy, as we all well know, but I agree we helped make China the successful industrial machine they are now, and there are consequences that come with that. We must ensure de-individuation doesn't occur on our own soil. That task at hand is primary and hard enough. The individual is not supreme but the collective is not either. Individual sovereignty within community is the way.
Personally, I’m always amused to hear Americans advocating for the Chinese to rise up and overthrow their government. What is it about us Americans and our fetish for regime change?
Most Chinese view the CCP as fairly competent and are trying to work to incrementally evolve and reform the political system in China. I’ve opined that the disconnect between Americans and Chinese in terms of their respective views of the CCP is sort of like the disconnect between progressives in America and Black Americans on the issue of crime and policing. Most Blacks are actually in favor of more stringent policing than the enlightened leftists who constantly demonize the cops in this country. Somehow the woke always seem to believe that they know better than the people whose interests they supposedly represent.
Giggling at all this presumed sophistication and knowledge about China. Hey Yah, quick question: How many public demonstrations did the Chinese govt report in 2008? Why did they stop reporting after there were over 100,000 that year? Huh.
Noticed I did not claim we should overthrow them, I claimed they should. Or not. But we should de-couple utterly.
Yes, true. Revolution is in our DNA. We are a nation who overthrew our oppressors. Live and let live unless and until that infringes upon others' sovereignty. What would constitute an infringement upon sovereignty? When enough people feel their quality of life and freedoms have deteriorated to the point that dying would be better than living (as in the women of Iran, the young people in Hong Kong and Taiwan, the people of Sri Lanka, Venezuela, etc.). I think we will see the more egalitarian systems we all hope for in the next few generations, IF they don't have to suffer first to learn what it means to be free.
C'mon, Scott D...yes, in 1990 we thought engaging with the Chinese would liberalize them...but that hasn't happened. If anything, conditions are worsening, from what I can tell. What our Chinese friends learn when they come here is that we are a nation in decline, and that virtually every American can be bought, often at a low low price.
Xi Xingping evidently spent lots of time in the US, making friends with, among others, Joe Biden...now Xi is on the way to becoming the world's dictator, and Joe is his paid lap dog. So how did that "exchange" work out?
"I work at a university" There's your problem! No kidding, at this point, the Ameican university is the place where critical thought and free inquiry go to die. Wake up.
Agreed, the benefits are all for them. Meanwhile, it's not just the Chinese. We are flooded with Indians who abuse our immigration system at every level. Result? Corporate IT salaries have stagnated for 30 years. Saddest is your idea that we will change them - they are changing us. Wake up. The Chinese have a 100 year plan that began in 1949, and the goal is for them to become the global hegemon and displace us. They are fighting at 'total war' against us, on every level possible already except for openly shooting at each other.
In theory, but like that flooring for almost nothing Mr. Swinden went to China for, it likely comes at incredible cost.
You should know that many of them, unfortunately, are recruited as spies by the CCP. Many of the nicest, friendliest, hardest-working students. They don't want to be spies. They like the USA & that's why they are here.
But the CCP calls them & says "If you don't spy for us, we will put your parents & grandparents in China into jail." It is horrible. But unfortunately that's what the CCP does. All US research gets sent directly to the CCP.
I hope you aren't doing important scientific research. Because that research will be used by the Chinese military to shoot nuclear weapons at us in the future.
Complete and total nonsense, but sadly this is the state of American discourse on China these days. I suggest you read about the recently ended China Initiative. One of the most glaring conclusions was how little actual espionage we found in academia, although we did end up harassing scores of Chinese academics for administrative lapses.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/03/21/have-chinese-spies-infiltrated-american-campuses
https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/12/02/1040656/china-initative-us-justice-department/
Ironically in part due to things like the China Intiative, increasing numbers of Chinese American academics have been returning to China in recent years. A comparable example of a country shooting itself in the foot might've been Germany kicking out its Jews during World War 2.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2022-10-02/chinese-scientists-anti-asian
As far as I can tell, ethnic Chinese have made enormous contributions to STEM in America so the benefits are hardly one sided as you seem to allude to below. Part of the reason why America is in the position it finds itself in in the global semiconductor battle is because of ethnic Chinese who either founded or cofounded critical companies like Nvidia or Lam Research.
The decoupling that you propose has already started to occur due to misguided initiatives like the recently ended China Initiative which harassed scores of academics of Chinese descent mostly over administrative lapses rather than actual espionage. Many Chinese people already feel the geopolitical chills due to deteriorating China-US relations. My gut feeling is that this decoupling will ultimately be to China’s advantage and America’s detriment in the global competition over the commanding heights of the 21st century.
Maybe there's a parallel to how Germany kicked out its Jews during World War 2 and American STEM benefitted?
This is a complex issue. We must separate the people of our countries from the governments of our countries, yet we cannot. They are intertwined. In the US we are free to oppose our government without interference (something that is eroding). In China, such opposition or even criticism is not possible, thus it is difficult to trust. I agree that deteriorating US-China relations is not a good thing, but I don't think the outcome will be to America's disadvantage in the long-term, maybe in the short term, yes. The heart of America, in its people, will always rise to the occasion. I just hope it is before we suffer rather than after. As I said in a previous comment, revolution is in our DNA, and you can't say that about any other country in the world. We do not fear throwing off oppression.
That's what makes us so important to the evolution of the planet. If the American experiment fails, we will all fail, but we can take a page or two or three out of the playbook of other countries. We evolve together (and I mean the people) or we go down with these corrupt governments.
So maybe someone on here can help the Mom set up an art exhibit of the drawings to bring attention to the situation and maybe sale the ones that are not to personal since she is on government assistance? Would be one way her son could help provide for her since he can't do it in person. I heard the Verdict podcast about this and the one take away is that being quiet about it for a decade and letting diplomats do their job hasn't worked. Maybe it is time to make some noise and shine a never ending light on it like the cell he is being kept in.
Fantastic idea!
This only helps point out what so many already know. The government will sacrifice you for trade or a chance to get a news story about how great they are making relations with other countries. The other is that although not perfect, the US legal system is not as bad as the wokesters would have you believe. It is actually the ability of morally corrupt people to get elected that makes our system not function as intended. People saying my desires and beliefs out weight the written code of law.
Big difference here. Britney was guilty of her crime and Swidan is not. Anyone who thinks Britney wasn't a priority because of race and lesbian choice is delusional. The State Department under any administration is pretty much useless and is corrupt from the inside.
I would suggest a 20 percent tariff on all Chinese goods until our people are set free. Do we need their crap, NO! We do anything not to offend a communist, ruthless, deranged, and self serving elite communist structure. Yet, we will screw our own people over and over again and call it progress. But, you get what you vote for, watch Chicago that just elected another woke mayor.
Biden needs to step up. Or have Kackles give speeches to the Chinese until their brains scramble and they agree just to shut her up. Either way, this is unfortunately what you can expect from out government these days.
Sadly, tariffs don't actually work like most people think they do, and other more difficult (and therefore less politically visible) means are necessary. Tariffs are ultimately simply consumption taxes on the buyers, and when it comes to cheap crap like Walmart sells that won't affect retail customers - Walmart will simply raise ALL prices on similar non-Chinese goods and pocket the difference. At the industrial level tariffs don't really help either except on highly fungible (i.e. interchangeable) materials, but they screw over users of component products whose only source is in China - and such users (unless they're Apple) have no clout to get such items made anywhere else. I own a manufacturing company, I know whereof I speak - I'd love to be able source certain parts from anywhere but China, but the final point of assembly on many unique things is China (even if 90% of the rest of the part was made in the US or elsewhere and merely shipped to China for final work). For goods like these, tariffs make the US Treasury a crapload of money, which comes right out of my pocket, not touching the Chinese at all.
If you really want to hurt Chinese exports, the best way is stop the freight subsidies authorized 20 years ago. Ever notice how cheap Chinese crap from Amazon arrives at your doorstep with almost no freight? The US taxpayer footed the bill. And this is true for many countries. I cannot easily export anything overseas due to the freight costs, but almost anyone in the world can send TO the US for pennies on the dollar compared to what it costs us to export. The US taxpayer subsidizes cheap imports by footing the freight bill. That's criminal, and stopping that nonsense would also torpedo the ChiCom slave factories' pricing sweetheart deals with Walmart and others.
Thanks for this information. I will check it out. For what it is worth I gave up WalChina 30 years ago. My money actually goes further because I do not have to replace products as often.
Same here
I do not buy Made in China garbage
It is hard though. I keep noticing things that are not labeled at all. I thought labels were required.
Your tariff explanation is correct. China is not being punished by these tariffs. We are.
That's because our government made some very poor decisions regarding China years ago naively thinking there would be no ramifications. In addition we have really greedy companies that would sell our souls to make a bigger profit still passing off expenses to American buyers when costs go up. I try everything I can not to buy products made in China. I am not in manufacturing but I think we should do everything we can to source from other countries.
Completely agree with you.
I also don't buy Made in China & I try my best to buy Made in USA.
https://www.usalovelist.com/
They try to make the biggest profit they can, to benefit the CEO's, & still charge the consumer the same cost as what a US-made item costs in the store. They will charge whatever the consumer will pay.
With greeting cards: the least expensive ones are Made in USA (I always check the back!) and the most expensive $7 Greeting cards are Made in China. Because those are the ones with electronics or Papyrus fancy stuff glued on by slave labor. The plain & simple greeting cards are made in USA.
I remember going to Walmart to buy a potty seat for my 2 year old (now 6 year old, so 4 years ago).
Potty seat #1 Made in China cost $13.00.
Potty seat #2 Made in Sweden cost $13.50.
This was a no-brainer. I bought potty seat #2.
I don't buy Made in China & only buy Made in USA
What Manufacturing Sector do you work in? What Industry?
but I 100% agree with you about the freight subsidies "de minimis". It costs pennies for Chinese slave labor factories to ship to USA, which US Taxpayer subsidizes the cost of that shipping but costs US factories a ton to ship out. This is something Congress needs to do. Change the law to stop subsidizing Chinese mail. They need to do it now. Yesterday.
I manufacture electronics, and the supply chain for those is incredibly complicated.
Eeek
Yes you are right. I do my absolute best to seek out not Made in China & small electronics is the toughest. I do look for Made in Japan, Made in Korea, Made in Taiwan electronics. But it's tough unfortunately. For people like me who really care.
I will (and often do!) happily spend 2-3 times the cost to buy a non-Chinese made item. Not everyone is like that though.
It's trickier than you might suppose because actually, lots of electronics that say "made in China" were really only "assembled in China" out of components made in many other countries. And vice versa too.
A single mid-range chip can go through 5-6 countries during manufacturing.
I think your perspective of what China sells to the US is a bit outdated. These days it’s increasingly high-tech products like DJI drones or CATL batteries. Chinese companies account for over 55% of the global market for EV batteries and companies like Ford and Tesla are both in discussions to license CATL’s world leading LFP battery technology.
Trying to decouple from China isn’t realistic because of its increasing prominence in various global supply chains. The notion of Chinese exports as being mostly cheap Walmart products is probably a decade or two behind the times. At the very least it ignores the substantial qualitative shift that's taken place over the past 10-15 years or so.
I manufacture electronics so I'm well versed in the high tech products made in China (and will add the caveat that in some things like chips, China doesn't have the good ones, they have to import them). The battery issue is one close to me, and a huge part of why China dominates on batteries is actually regulatory: our government won't let us make them here at costs that would permit them to be sold easily. We are blocked from mining the raw materials easily, the manufacturing itself is environmentally tricky enough that few want to go through the permitting processes, and yet... our government hands over cutting edge battery chemistry to the Chicoms. It's a disgrace.
DJI dominating the drones was equally a disgrace. Obama knew damned well that DJI was selling drones at a loss, with heavy ChiCom subsidies, and stealing US tech, but ignored it.
But we should be careful not to overstate the qualitative shift in Chinese manufacturing. It's better than it used to be, but it's incredibly fragile. Check out Peter Zeihan's analyses on China's manufacturing future.
Isn't Peter Zeihan the guy who predicted on Joe Rogan that China would collapse by 2030? Would you like to bet on that?
You are sadly correct.
100% tariff
and we need to do the most important thing (which no Dem or GOP politician will ever do!) which is to not allow Wall Street to invest into any Chinese company.
Wall St basically uses peoples's 401k's to enrich Chinese companies. This is why my 401k & husbands 401k is 100% US Treasury Bonds. Because I don't want my money used to fund the CCP.
I largely agree. But black men maintain that they have been treated like this in the US forever. And that bad mark on the prosecutor's record is real here too. Or more accurately their conviction rate, like it is a baseball stat. Now we are about to see how it works for a former president. Of course he will have the best criminal defense money can buy.
This is the sort of thing Amnesty International used to exist to remedy. But they seem to have lost their way long ago, like the ACLU and Southern Poverty Law Center. Consistency demands principles, and political partisanship and tribalism are inimical to principles.
The SPLC had an employee, a lawyer, arrested recently for domestic terrorism in Atlanta at that police training center they've been attacking. By the usual leftist standards that would make the SPLC a forbidden, censured organization. Except it doesn't apply, because the SPLC is a leftist organization.
https://www.newsweek.com/lawyers-arrest-atlanta-protest-sparks-criticism-splc-1785889
Well at least the rest of us can truthfully claim now that SPLC is "associated with domestic terrorism."
Now you can take the leftist rhetorical tactic anytime the SPLC is brought up: "well I wouldn't trust an organization associated with terrorism."
True and I have already used that once or twice in discussion.
And he was out lickety split because he was not a participant, only an observer. Yeah, right.
Those entities have lost touch with the individuals they are supposed to champion and instead are all about the money, the virtue signaling, and the glorification of the cause.
Why supposedly sane people visit these despotic hellholes continues to elude me.
Yet despite stories such as this about the viciousness and brutality of Chinese communism, our globalist masters such as Cook, Dimon, Gates and the the rest of that deplorable gang of human garbage continue to bow and scrape to their Chinese masters and invest and buy products made by abused slave laborers. Well, why not, when we have a President who has taken Chinese cash and is in their pocket? These fiends even pontificate that the "Chinese model" may be better for us. Quelle surprise. You're really nothing but a serf with better toys.
And now, in keeping with their love of all things China, they're even trying to turn our cherished justice system into the "Chinese model." The article points out "It didn’t matter. In China, the criminal justice system is not really about crime or justice as much as it is a tool used by the powerful to shut down or scare off those who threaten their power." We saw that played out yesterday as a puppet NYC prosecutor indicted Trump on utterly farcical charges. You may hate Trump but you cannot doubt that he threatens the elites in ways that scare them to their very bones.
Have you been to Shanghai or Beijing or Shenzhen recently since zero-covid was abandoned or for that matter prior to covid breaking out? There’s nothing remotely obvious to the typical person that these places are despotic hellholes. Yeah, China isn’t politically free to the same extent that America is and if you engage in activity that challenges the CCP there will almost certainly be consequences. But most people just live their lives in peace.
It's interesting that you reference the China model because I’m currently reading a book by political scientist Daniel Bell with that exact title. I think he makes a persuasive case for why democracy in the sense of one person one vote isn’t necessarily the best or least bad form of governance, contrary to what Winston Churchill might’ve famously opined. Americans tend to value procedural fairness above the actual end result. What matters isn’t whether or not the president who ends up being elected is competent. The most important thing to Americans is the idea that each person should get to cast a vote for the presidency.
Bell makes the argument that by contrast China can be viewed as a political meritocracy with meritocracy at the top, experimentation in the middle and democracy at the bottom at the grassroots village level. This is something that most Americans aren’t aware of or appreciate. We expect our leaders to demonstrate their competency in every domain from business to science to economics. Yet, we toss all of that aside when it comes to our elected political officials and are perfectly content to the accept the results of a mob popularity contest highly susceptible to demagogues as long as procedural fairness has been indulged. Bell questions the wisdom of that slavish worship of the idea of one person one vote and I think reasonable Americans should as well.
Say what you will about China’s political system, but there’s no way that someone like Donald Trump would ever rise to the highest position of power in the CCP. In China people have to prove themselves at lower levels of government before being elevated to the top. For instance, Xi Jinping served in Hebei, Fujian, Zhejiang and Shanghai before being promoted to the 9-man Politburo Standing Committee back in 2007.
1) you seem to straddle the fence a lot. Using "we" to mean American as if you are but robustly presenting the Chinese POV. There are difficulties in US and China relations. I think it is, and has been, a be careful what you wish for situation as to America's desire for relations with China. 2) as I have opined elsewhere I think the post-WWII dream of a globally connected world to reduce the risk of another world war has been carried out largely at the expense of, and on the back of, the US and to her detriment. It was foolhardy to think that vastly different cultures would or should abandon them for western values. But oddly you are taking the same stance with your to the glory of China POV. 3) your point about one-person one-vote in the US and a person like Donald Trump never achieving power in China is interesting. I guess you miss the significance but China is a single party system with, as you acknowledge with the Trump statement, a highly regimented structure to select and elevate leadership. In other words, no one's vote matters. Decisions are made within the party. Of course people there just live their lives in peace because resistance is futile as the Borg say. You simply prefer a rigid, authoritarian government. Messy as things are here, I disavow the Chinese system. Wholeheartedly disavow.
The notion that a one-party state is bad is vastly overstated in my opinion. Singapore has effectively been a one-party stated ruled by the PAP since its independence in 1965. Japan is often held up as an erstwhile democracy, but apart from 1993-1994 and 2009-2012, the LDP has been in power continuously since 1955. Japan is virtually a one-party state.
There’s a part of me that thinks that life in either Japan or Singapore would be superior to life in much of the US. So much for one-party states being bad.
I gather that you approve of a one party system. I do not. And IMO much of what what is wrong in the US is the breakdown of the two party system into a defacto single party system.
As Franklin famously observed, those who would trade liberty for security will end up with neither. Our friend Shen apparently would make that trade without hesitation.
The irony is that the founding fathers were well aware of the dangers of mob rule and the need for competent leaders. In The Republic, Plato famously advocated for rule by philosopher-kings. One might argue that China today is run by technocrat-kings.
The sacralization of democracy in the form of one person one vote is more of a post WW2 phenomenon.
It's interesting that you attribute America's political malaise to it devolving into a one-party system. I’m currently reading a book by political scientist Daniel Bell which argues that China and Singapore are political meritocracies and that the downsides of the current American political system are because it sacralizes the notion of one person one vote at the expense of demanding competency among its political leaders. In other words, Americans seem to care far more that the process is fair than we do about the actual end result.
Part of the problem is that Americans believe that aspects of our political system like democracy in the form of one person one vote or trial by jury are so sacrosanct, we become blind to the possibilities that alternative political systems might have merit. My understanding is that in Japan there aren’t trials by jury like what we have in the United States. Yet, my personal opinion of the value of juries went down significantly in the aftermath of the OJ Simpson trial, when a racial demagogue like Johnny Cochrane managed to pander to the biases of the jurors and get an obvious murderer off the hook.
Personally, I’m not a fan of censorship and it’s the one area where I have major criticisms of the CCP. But as far the idea that democracy is the least bad form of governance as opined by Winston Churchill, I find that sentiment to be vastly overstated. I think that everything Americans presume to be sacred such as one person one vote or trial by a jury of one’s peers should be subjected to scrutiny so that we aren’t deluding ourselves into believing that these actually constitute the least bad form of governance out of a universe of possibilities.
I read your earlier post. I responded to it. You are repeating yourself. Calling China a political meritocracy is rich given that its people cannot call it anything but for fear of retribution. Basically you are saying American voters are too stupid to elect competent leadership. While I think there is a certain amount of validity to that at this particular point in time it is because many of them are, like you, particularly thd youth who have no life experience, captured by an ideaology and do not vote in their own self-interest. Additionally each party, at this point in time, is to some extent the opposite side of the same coin. We, citizens of the US, have experienced this before, and provided those who think like you do not win the scurrilous campaign now being conducted by the Democrats to solidify their power at any cost we will go through it again. Politicol parties evolve here. That is possible in a free society. China just went from allegiance to the world's last reugning monarch to allegiance to a brutal dictator and now a more benevolent one. The differences between my culture and yours are vast. You will never fully comprehend mine because are not able to understand it no matter how many books you read. You are culturally indoctrinated otherwise. I am culturally indoctrinated to aspire to a free society. Messy as that can be. Previously people here and in other western nations made the same argument in favor of Germany as you make about China. Except the buzzword was efficiency as opposed to meritocracy. When you subject your people to a dictatorship it is easy to make the trains run on time. But that does not justify a dictatorship. I do agree that the notion of comparison is wrong. You are entitled to be governened in your country as you accept. I am entitled to be governed by those I and my fellow citizens choose. We will only be forced to choose which is "best" if the push for one world government succeeds. I oppose that based on the all the eggs in one basket theory.
The real problem with the United States is that we don't demand competency from voters. It isn't exclusively the candidates' faults that stupid and/or brainwashed voters vote for them. The other growing problem is the brazen fearlessness with which the media advances one party (Ds) over any other, because the media is populated almost exclusively by people who themselves are Ds. Trump was elected in spite of them, and they have worked tirelessly to destroy him using the same unscrupulous tactics with which they advance their cult agenda. That's where clear-eyed Americans see parallels to totalitarian states.
Japan & Singapore are fantastic countries.
Life there is superior to life in China, which is why so many Chinese move to Singapore. I doubt Japan would let in a large amount of immigrants.
Sure, the same political party has been in power. But people there are free.
They are free to express their opinions. To protest. To state political opinions. To vote for whoever they want. To use the internet. No Great Firewall. People in Japan & Singapore can go on Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, etc. They can watch any show/movie they want I would argue that being able to access the open internet is one of the biggest benefits of freedom. Because then you get knowledge.
I was born in the USSR & my parents often tell me how they didn't have access to Western news sources/media. All they heard was USSR propaganda. Other than the Voice of America, which my dad listened to, but not everyone could get access to it.
You must've forgotten about Japan bashing during the 1980s when Americans hated the Japanese and directed much of the same vitriol against them back then that we do against the Chinese today. How quickly memories fade. There were plenty of Americans who were gung-ho about buying American and adamant that they wouldn't buy Japanese.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1992/03/08/hammering-americas-image/bdd81faa-7f68-407e-afb9-dbc96baa718a/
I was actually going to write a snarky retort but I found you defense of the barbaric Chinese Communist system so chilling I wanted to address it head on. The Chinese citizens are spied on and cowed. Their lives are relatively stable unless they rock the boat. But even that can be snatched away at the whim of the Party. No normal person wants to live that way. Certainly not any normal American. To the contrary of your belief, the Chinese Communist party is hardly a "meritocracy." It doesn't reward normal ability, but, rather, fealty to the oppressive system that maintains an iron grip on the Chinese people. The Chinese system is not a government; no more than the mafia and its party congresses are nothing more than the Apalachian Convention writ large; except without the honor of the mafia dons.
I truly hope you are not living in the US, more so that you're not a US citizen. America - or what remains of it - is still the only bulwark against the soulless one world system you seem to cherish. And there remain enough of us, I believe, who will fight and die to keep the light of liberty alive.
Well, you seem to be acknowledging that I'm a human being instead of adamantly insisting as in a prior comment that I’m a snake or something, so I guess this seems like a promising start.
No one claimed that the Chinese government was perfect and as Daniel Bell argues, part of the evolution of governance in China will be to ensure that the CCP becomes more meritocratic over time. But if you look at its track record post-Mao, it’s been remarkably competent. There’s a clear body of work spanning over 4 decades of tremendous growth and increasing prosperity.
I’m not sure how you decided that you were going to speak on behalf of all “normal” people, but plenty of people in China find the CCP to be reasonably competent and are looking to incrementally evolve the political system there rather than overthrow it. I find in my own social circles that many Chinese studying or working in the US increasingly find China to be a more appealing place long-term than America, especially for those who didn’t grow up in the US.
I despise the Chinese Communists. I think people who make excuses for them are dupes. But to the extent you might want to export that evil to our own shores that would change things The US Constitution is a bulwark against the one-party evil that you appear to defend. There is simply zero room for compromise or discussion on that issue.
And to think that us Americans stereotype those Chinese communists as being slavishly devoted to ideology while Americans embrace the light of pragmatic rationality!
Rose-colored glasses here perhaps. China had Mao and then passed laws to try to prevent that cult of personality and got Deng but swung back a bit with Xi. America may have a cult of personality but we’ve never had a genocidal maniac as leader.
"America may have a cult of personality but we’ve never had a genocidal maniac as leader."
Tell that to Andrew Jackson and the Native Americans.
Black men have been saying this about the US justice system for generations.
What a terribly sad story. I used to travel to China for work. There’s no way I’d risk it now.
Oh yea.
My husband goes on business trips but he always says NO to business trips in dangerous countries, basically anywhere you could be taken prisoner against your will (China, Russia, Arab countries, etc). Instead, he'll do virtual Zoom meetings. Much safer.
Did you realize that Zoom was founded by a Chinese American named Eric Yuan and that despite it being an American company most of its engineering team is based in China? I guess you'll have to boycott that too now in addition to everything else Chinese.
https://www.foxnews.com/tech/coronavirus-crisis-zooms-presence-china-under-scrutiny
Your probability of being taken prisoner against your will in China is probably comparable to your probability of being shot by a cop in this country. But we know how libs love exaggerating the idea that cops are the greatest threat to Black men in America.
If this site corrects the caption I will read the article. The scandal is not an American scandal. It is a scandal owned by the Leftist totalitarian countries where innocent people are imprisoned. The Left in America is now attempting to bring this @#$&ing practice to America. This is now the most pressing American scandal. It has been brought to America by the political party supported by the proprietors of this site.
Disagree. Sure the government of China, and the other countries holding our citizens, are ultimately responsible. But the lack of action on behalf of Mr. Swiden is an American scandal. It’s a scandal of our government and of our media who should be giving us regular updates on all 50+ of our citizens held in other countries. Shining a light is the best means of accountability. TFP has pushed this case into the light. Would that our national media would do the same for all.
Well technically that is what our federal government via the State Department and others should be doing. Which is further proof that we are expendable to said government.
Yes, agree, we should still shine a light; however, caution is the best action when traveling out of the West. I travel overseas a lot. We were in Beijing during the early 1980s with an American corporation so felt some degree of protection. It was also a very different government. They didn't even have potable water in China back then, either; that's how much they've changed. There is personal responsibility, and then there is government responsibility. I had an experience once in Ireland during a pat down because of a metal buckle on my blouse (while Hilary Clinton was in country, so heightened security). The agents were patting me quite a lot (underwire bra), and I suggested I would remove my shirt if that helped, and they told me quite sternly that if they wanted me to do that, they would state it. I said nothing further. It wasn't until I was walking back out (and they were chatting casually to each other) that I realized I wasn't free at all while I was in there. That is always something to consider.
Agree. This is not an American scandal. This is a political scandal. When you travel for extended periods to other countries, which I have done and still do, you are no longer a free American. You must keep that in mind. There are many countries I just would not set foot in.
That is what I think too Rosemary. Too many Americans, especially young Americans, think they will be respected abroad because they are American.
"Too many Americans, especially young Americans, think they will be respected abroad because they are American."
too many young Americans lack the most basic knowledge of what America is, and so they expect other places to be like America too. That the Chinese would grab and arrest an american tourist for no reason isn't surprising. That Americans would be so clueless as to travel there, now that is truly shocking.
I too hold the unpopular opinion that actually this is entirely the fault of the guy who wanted to buy flooring for "next to nothing". Who did he think would make it, and what would they be paid?
China is not "leftist" by any stretch of the imagination. It's not even far right. We have nothing to even compare it to in the U.S.
The definition of "leftist" is subjective, but China is a collectivist, totalitarian society that openly embraces and advocates Communist ideology (in practice, the economic theories are not really in place).
And in the news today black activist, Moore of Austin, TX thinks prisons should be abolished and that murderers and robbers should clean houses instead. The USA has pandered to black misbehavior for too long. And in another article this morning- in San Fran a white tech entrepreneur, 43 was stabbed to death....
Except black men have faced an Iron Triangle here for generations. unless they were lucky enough to draw a competent public defender or court-appointed attorney. Atticus Finch most are not. But as was oft said yesterday, two wrongs do not make a right and the fix for what I allege is not to ignore crime. In.other Austin news, US Army Sgt. Daniel Perry's trial for shooting and killing an armed protester who pointed a rifle at him as Sgt. Perry's vehicle was surrounded by hostile protesters continues. He was doing a side-gig with Uber during the summer of hate, I mean love. The former Travis County DA declined to prosecute and the investigating officer is to be a defense witness. But the Soros elected DA, Jose Garza, reinstated the charge. You all should check it out. The testimony is stunning. He does have good lawyers though. But none of us are safe at this point.
"Except black men have faced an Iron Triangle here for generations"
Like OJ Simpson did? Like Jesse Smallett did? Like Bill Cosby did (he's free)?
Rich people can afford better lawyers than poor people, regardless of race. Don't make everything about race. Don't feed this preposterous idea that blacks are helpless victims. Look at Obama, Oprah, Will Smith, and don't make everything about race.
I think it's hilarious that Queen Oprah found it fit to leave Chicago SEVEN years ago - she certainly saw the writing on the wall....she's sitting fat'n'happy in one of the whitest places on earth : )
Don't lecture me. I know that of which I speak. My comment is far from "make[ing] everything about race". To the contrary it is addressing one specific aspect of race - treatment of black men in the US criminal justice system. But actually you are somewhat correct in that it is really about poverty. Plenty of poor white trash has suffered the same result at the hands of the same system. Just statistically a larger percentage of the black population was historically poor. Denying the obvious is .ot a good position to be in.
There is no need to racialize this or any other topic, and no topic is helped by being viewed through a racial lens.
Fact is, you (we) have no idea whether blacks are disproportionately harmed (or helped) by criminal justice. To answer that question, you'd need to control for a million variables. Or, you could simply ignore the unmeasurable (race) and focus on the measurable (resources). Voila --- the world is a better truer place.
To the contrary. I do know. While it is wrong to view ALL things through the lens of race, it is equally wrong to say that race never matters. But you carry on in your echo chamber.
It does feel like a rat-fxck doesn’t it? So glad I moved out of NYCity…the murder & mayhem seem distant to me in the country- can catch a breathe, feel sane.
Yes but as someone who did that exact thing 30+ years ago I advise you not to get complacement because the rot is spreading.
Never Complaisant, Always Vigilant- but there’s no need to pay taxes to promote bad governance
If you are a Normal American, the Biden Administration and the GOPe hate you. Do not forget it.
They don't hate you, they just view you as someone they can take money from for their more important schemes and if you can't provide it they are indifferent.
Now they just print money, so...
But yet the Biden administration went all out to get that thankless woman basketball player out. I wonder why? I’m sorry but I cannot stand Biden. He is a blatant hypocrite. So many of them are. We should be fighting to get them all out. Not just one who is politically expedient.
Political pressure. Same thing when someone in the U.S. goes missing. The families that are the loudest get the most attention and resources.