The solution is easy. Australia had similar issue several years ago when people were coming on the boats causing many deaths also criminals were profiting on smuggling people.
What did Australia do? They passed a law stating that anyone crossing the border illegally has no possibility of ever getting asylum or legal visa and they would be deported immediately.
Also if you get caught employing illegal immigrants you face enormous fines, making entire market for illegal migrant labor dead.
Solution already exist, there is just no will in congress to do anything.
Congress doesnt really need to do anything. We have laws, passed by orior Congresses and signed by previous Presidents, allowing and indeed REQUIRING the arrest and detention of oeople here illegally.
Joe Biden has just ordered our law enforcement agencies not to enforce the law.
It is entirely as if we were attacked by a foreign nation and Joe Biden ordered our military not to defend us.
I am honestly baffled how anyone is confused about any of this. Its a simple situation with obvious solutions that can and course should be but will not be implemented.
The Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1952 has a section that includes the authority to close the border to all immigrants or to any class of immigrants. biden had the authority from day one to shut it down. Instead he kicked the doors open and hung up the Welcome sign. (And yes, I know I didn't capitalize his name. Caps imply respect...)
You are correct as always UF. We have existing laws that provide fair, safe and humane processes for people to enter our country. They just aren’t as expedient as the democrats wish them to be. If any U.S. Senator or Congressperson really cared about the issue they would be trying to rewrite existing laws and provide funds to beef up the process. They don’t have the guts to reveal to the people that they prefer open borders. It’s much easier for them to kick the ball to the Executive branch and pretend to the American people that the President is in charge of the border. This is such a dirty scheme. I wish more people cared, but they won’t until this ongoing invasion reaches their own neighborhoods and eats into their respective town budgets. Or worse the criminals slipping through the borders attack us from within our own country.
The situation is really pretty simple. Biden in effect is the police chief. His job is to enforce the laws passed by his local legislature. His branch is the Executive Branch. The Legislature passes the laws, and the Executive implements them.
Biden, or his handlers, more accurately, has chosen not to enforce the laws. He has even told everyone NOT to enforce the laws, as a positive prohibition.
This is exactly equal to a police chief telling his cops not to arrest people who rob, steal, assault or otherwise harm people. We are literally seeing this sort of thing in many cities right now. This is just a national analogue of it.
The whole thing is pure madness. It has ZERO possible justification, and rests entirely on a contempt for most Americans, indifference to our well being, and contempt for the laws of the nation he swore to protect.
The new fascism thinks on a global scale. Both America and Europe are being flooded with illegals as a means of destroying national borders and splintering national cohesion. Criminal "no go" sections appear in major cities, gang violence and rape escalate and citizens find public areas unsafe. This is followed by a faux Marxist/fascist campaign to stigmatize and criminalize the native born which, if one pays any attention to Europe at all, serves as a cover for criminalizing free speech and depression ultimately paving the way to the "object lesson" incarceration of concerned citizens. Add the "illegals first" burden placed on public funds and resources and the nations infrastructure begins to crumble. And that's the point.
Beneath it all is the overlooked decades long merger of criminal finance, organized crime, the surveillance community and the newest cartel member "big tech."
Sadly, Australia has a governing majority of left, woke, Democrats (in our country they are called Labor and the Greens and the Teals). They are destroying our country with red tape, stopping all development (including mining and drilling), refusal to consider nuclear energy, teaching our children to hate their country and history, DEI in overdrive, believing in fairytale level NetZero targets, government over-control, small business is being strangled, IR laws that stymie any kind of effective productivity, etc. Australia is not far away from the US in terms of social and economic difficulties.
WOW, ScarlettH, take away your first sentence and you described the USA! Instead we have WOKE Progressive Democrats & RINOS running our country. Running us into the ground!
Japan is pretty frickin communist in reality but I respect what they’re doing.
Like you can’t just show up in Japan from fuckin El Salvador and request benefits. They would just put you back on the boat and give you the middle finger.
They also used to have strict legal immigration rules. You had to prove you could do a job that they needed filled and prove you weren't going to be an economic burden. Just like in the USA .... oh, wait...
Big business doesn’t want a completely closed border. Example: both Tyson Foods and Chobani (dairy giant) reaching out to new illegals to come work for them.
These companies operate in States that do not require E-Verify.
There is the border itself. But there is also the businesses in America who want these low-cost workers. Look at your own State’s stance on E-Verify here:
Idaho is pretty Red leaning State. This is where Chobani has its largest manufacturing. State of Tennessee is also fairly Red. This is big manufacturing location for Tyson chicken.
I like it, Bruce. Controlling the border is both at the border and at the business incentive level. There’s a trade off of higher food prices if cheap, illegal labor is replaced by higher wage, native citizen labor. I’d say the security of our nation is most important. But I say that as an individual that isn’t food insecure. The rub on this is if food prices (and other prices go up because you shut off illegals) does this force more native citizens to have to rely on government hand outs more than they do today, because overall goods/services are more $ burdensome? Because we do know that there is a direct correlation between those dependent on government, usually voting much more for the party in favor of those handouts.
What an interesting discussion! Capitalist market freedom has reached its limits when the normal idea that anyone can fend for themselves no longer works. We're not discussing why this is the case. Of course, there are issues with upbringing and education, but the balance of supply and demand in the labor market is always changing. Thus, it's not just about rising prices but about a growing number of people who can't keep up with prices, and it's not because they are lazy, but simply because the labor market doesn't provide them with sufficient income anymore. This is a situation where inflation increasingly outpaces labor incomes. Therefore, we come to the point where the state will have to compensate for the falling incomes of such people, otherwise, the state faces the risk of riots. From your words, it follows that the problem is solved by means of cheap labor? Is this sort of a deal: citizenship in the future, or even just the possibility of working - in exchange for no prosecution for illegal border crossing? Did I understand your thesis correctly?
I was a teenager in El Paso in the early 1960s. At 16 I tried to get a job and spent an entire summer filling out applications. Why would anyone hire me? They could get an illegal for less money and could keep them for the next 30 years where I would have to move to part time and/or work weekends when school started.
PS I was working at a restaurant in a town with 125 population at 8 years old. Also worked summers with my grandfather who was a ranch foreman. He told my wife he had me on a horse with him at 3 and on a horse by myself at 5. They ranch was 23 square miles, 30 horses, 350 cows, 3500 sheep, and about 500 goats. One year there were two Braceros (work visa set up between the US and Mexico:. But normally it was just grandad, grandmother, and in the summer me. Great times but also lots of hard work.
Thx for your reply, Alexey. I don’t have it figured out but I hope upcoming TFP debate explores these topics. There is a cause/effect of too much, too little illegal immigration (and resulting cheap labor). Could certain businesses operate profitably w/ less illegal labor? I’d say yes, but perhaps not all.
The other part of this debate I hope they touch is impact to Social Security system, if no more illegal, cheap labor. USA birth rate is now 1.78 per women & standard logic I’ve read is you need at least 2.1 per women to keep economy humming.
What’s the future impact to USA Social Security system of our low fertility rates and shit down of all illegals? In USA it’s currently about 2 workers to every retiree and 6.2% FICA tax to support. In 1950, the figures were ~16 workers to each retiree, and 1% to 2% payroll deduction. We need to have more workers to prop up these Entitlement Programs, increase the tax on existing workers, or cut back benefits.
There’s several circles of impact around immigration that don’t get a lot of debate, and these are a few of them.
Matt - your comments about the birth rate are accurate, however if we are planning on using immigrants to provide our population growth we should be vetting the candidates carefully. Look at where Europe is right now - they effectively outsourced their reproduction to Muslim immigrants that they then failed to assimilate into their culture. Their problems are only beginning.
I understand, it's a serious thesis that relates not only to the USA but also to all developed countries. I spoke about this situation and its solution at a TED event in 2013. Of course, that was in another life of mine, in a galaxy far, far away. There is a lot of statistics on this topic, and all of it is extremely disheartening. I agree that attracting young people to the country can partially solve this problem, but the speed of aging and retirement is rapidly outpacing birth rates, and not just due to the declining proportion of youth. Education and modern values in general are reducing the need for marriage, especially the need to have children and other commitments. Here in the discussion, it is claimed that a large part of immigrants receive welfare, rather than work. I.e., these people do not in any way reduce the cost of labor (if this is true, I have no data).
However, if we look at the problem you mentioned in the medium term perspective + the inevitable contraction of the labor market due to the increasingly wide use of algorithms and AI, it can be safely assumed: The proportion of people who will fall out of the labor market and not return anywhere will grow.
While the cost of automation in some sectors is higher than the cost of labor, even of illegals, this situation will change sharply within a 5-7 year horizon. (I live in Silicon Valley and follow the agenda).
Once again, thank you. At the very least, I've received several versions of hypotheses about the reasons for the increasing flow of immigrants.
By the way, since the United States Census is conducted every ten years, with the last one held in 2020, changes in population size due to migration after 2020 will not have a direct impact on the allocation of seats in the House of Representatives and the Electoral College until the next census, scheduled for 2030. This means that an increase in the number of migrants, regardless of their status, will not be able to influence the outcomes of the federal elections in 2024 or 2028 through changes in the number of seats in the House of Representatives or votes in the Electoral College, as the distribution of these seats will remain unchanged until the redistribution that follows the 2030 census.
Drugs, abortion, illegal immigrants. What do these have in common? Well, they all operate under the same laws of supply and demand as normal economic activity. We have yet to learn that trying to cut off the supply of drugs (at which we are still failing badly) will not stop drug abuse; only treatment and education will--cut off the demand, no need for supply. Same with abortion--states that want to outlaw it also have shitty or nonexistent sex education programs. Wow, I wonder why those states have demand for abortion? With increased STD levels added.
With immigrants, we failed to stop them when we were trying, and we're not even trying. But if the demand for that cheap labor is dramatically reduced, perhaps as Bruce suggests, the supply will fade away.
There are many others besides these two companies, employing illegal workers. Anywhere there’s a need for labor that company can’t attract native worker, and that State doesn’t mandate E-Verify, the current system is ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’
Don't forget Arkansas, I'm sitting here watching it. But damn, we're getting mostly Asians. They learned to make donuts. The Hispanics are on their 2nd generation, and they're doing all the outdoor work. Our locals get student loans, buy a new pick up truck, and do meth.
Yes, that Chobani plant is in Twin Falls, Idaho and there has been economic growth in that community as a result. I could list off so many communities across America who would love to have that manufacturing in their backyard. There are many circles of other businesses and families supported by that plant. What if Idaho implemented mandatory E-Verify for private business? Would Chobani then look to move manufacturing to another, non E-Verify state? Switching costs are high to do this. This is kind of thing that makes the border debate not so black & white.
They also did away with their mail in ballots at the turn of the 20th century ( its over a 100years ago) they couldn’t control the mail ins they realized it was a rigged system - it makes one realize here in America how slow and stupid we are🥲🥲and now Biden is telling us we can’t say illegal we have to say undocumented citizen it beggars belief!
😂😂😂yip think they are, but ask them first they might not like what they broke into and then most likely without offending them with any terminology which might not be PC, they might just go away or move onto the next blue state.
Although I like this idea, I’m not particularly enamored with Australia’s handling of issues, since the COVID debacle. Unfortunately, that makes me less interested in hearing about it, which is probably not the correct attitude to adopt. Good point though in that very workable solutions do exist. It’s an election year, and this issue is somewhat of a political hot potato that has also been kicked down the road many times by previous administrations , like the proverbial can.
Every single person that employs an illegal is more responsible, think farms, landscaping, construction, day labor, restaurants, hotels and on and on. If the illegals could not make money they wouldn't come here. American greed! We complain all day about immigration and illegals but look away when hiring one just to save a few $.
1. CLOSE the border. Like COMPLETELY it shut it down. Announce it to the world, we are shutting it down until...
2. We sift through all the illegals who are here. If you are here and want to work, LINE UP. You will work and you will be TAXED up the ass like all working Americans, but there will be a path to citizenship. If you don't like it....
3. SHIP back all criminals and deviants. During the above steps...
4. Work on all immigration laws to rectify all border and immigration problems, then...
5. Re-open border under a much tighter security not letting EVERY GOD DAMN LIVING BEING CROSS OVER.
I like the Australian solution better. Incarcerate CEOs of businesses who hire undocumented Democrats.
Eisenhauer closed the border in the 50s and deport all the illegals he could get his hands on. So it can be done it the next president has the backbone.
I don't think it's the case down under that the business owners own the government. Here, business wants as many easily exploitable illegal workers they can get their hands on. They generously donate to politicians of all stipes to grease the wheels, who in turn just throw up their hands, "Well, what are we gonna do?" and let them flood in.
Seal and fortify the border, station the U.S. Army along it, put up signs in every common language that anyone attempting to cross the border will be shot on sight -- and actually follow through.
Then round up and deport every single illegal who has crossed under Biden. It won't be easy and it won't be pretty. But neither will absorbing 10+ million unvetted invaders, many of whom are criminals and most of whom have no intention of assimilating into American culture. Our so-called "leaders" have brought the dregs of the third world into every corner of America and are asking us to invite them into our homes. Expect theirs, of course.
Nobody earning $60,000 a year or under is getting TAXED UP THE ASS. Most of them pay nothing, unless you're referring to FICA, which is unsustainable at it's current payouts, so give up your Medicare, if you like to live common sense.
This isn't about immigration. This is an outright invasion. And our current government is letting it happen. They don't care who's coming in or why. They are NOT protecting us. It's TREASON.
I disagree. They know exactly why. Population counts and capturing more house seats in cities. Potential, permanent votes for Dem candidates. Easy, really.
The border crisis is 100% on Biden. His time in office is historic in that for the first time ever, an American presidency defaulted to a position in polar opposition to federal law. Instead of the conventional “block, detain, deport and deter of all previous Democratic Party presidents,” the Biden administration has taken the formal stated position that southern border traffic should be made “safe, humane and orderly” into the nation’s interior. No American president has ever decided that, as a matter of national policy, the executive branch would abdicate the enforcement of immigration statutes and basically erect turnstiles at the border, refusing to stymie illegal immigration as required in well-established federal laws. For the first time since federal immigration laws were passed in 1903, a president effectively ended deportation of every kind and established in its place a first-ever sanctuary nation.
I find it mind boggling these are the best people they could find to have this debate. It’s like they’re trying to make us dumber. If you’re going to have a debate structure it like a debate - here’s someone’s who had their ranch overrun on the border. Here’s someone who is employing migrants and the cost/benefit. Here’s hoteliers making serious cash on this “crisis.” Here’s someone who works for an NGO that’s bringing people here. Here’s someone working against those NGOs.
This “debate” is talking head morons who know nothing about anything… how is that POSSIBLY the best someone with resources can come up with?!
I agree. I understand it might be entertaining in some fashion, but their actual hands on knowledge of the situation is not existent-even if I was in Texas I wouldn’t buy a ticket. My husband was raised near El Paso and there are plenty of people who can speak to the situation.
How do we fix it? Easy. Grow some guts and deport the entire lot of them. And if people protest, tough. This tidal wave is ruining our country. Worse, it's deliberate. A country with sane people would grab the ringleader - JR Biden - out of his lair, walk him to the nearest lamp post and stretch his neck. Just like the justice meted out to similarly destructive autocratic fools such as the Ceaucescus. Don't like it? Tough. I don't like my country being invaded and ruined.
I've baited them with worse. Note however it was conditioned on us still being sane. Given that we're certifiably insane as a nation, there was no threat. Besides what's one more MAGA extremist white nationalist?
The premise is a lie. Nobody is asking for closed borders. People are asking for enforcement of immigration law.
The American citizens who are descendants of legal immigrants are rightfully angry and confused by the catering to those who do not even make any pretense of attempting to follow the laws set by congress in order to arrive on our shores. It's a bullshit argument to say Americans hate "immigrants." Americans hate politicians who like to conflate those who follow the law with those who don't. A special place in hell awaits those semantic language-fuckers.
What should we do about the fact that lowlife intellectual pussies who attended college are allowing psychopathic Neanderthals to invade our country??
I don’t know.
Obviously the NGOs and the drug dealers and the various Democrats involved in this human trafficking scheme should be hunted and killed by the military.
But we won’t do that because this country is already dead. However, we still have time for some more homosexual parades so we should do those as the public suicide of America continues.
You seem really focused on gay parades. That and apparently the purity of the blood of the nation and cleansing the country of those that you feel are somehow contributing the the tainting of that purity. Which, kinda sounds like the kind of topics that made Mussolini and Hitler cream their pants. But, if you're really interested in gay parades, that's cool too.
This likewise applies to the Muslim hordes on Greek islands like Lesbos too. When The New York Times refused to publish my comments on the subject -- this a few years after it actually ran an article about the depredations wrought by "refugees" and how Greek farms and homes on Lesbos were despoiled -- I realized that this heretofore newspaper of note would not print anything derogatory about Muslim men invading people's countries, and that was a decision, against all facts, it would stick to.
The Times had to work hard to take photos of women and children. The migrants are almost exclusively men in their 20s and 30s.
Controlling our border is not rocket science. Immigrants should obtain pre-screening and authorization from abroad except in rare instances (e.g. slaughter of Yazidi Christians) with Executive and/or Legislative approval required. Those who cross without such authorization should be immediately deported across the same border they crossed. Legal immigration should be increased, and it should target the needs of the U.S. economy in terms of skills or capital the individual brings. Legal immigrants should be allowed and encouraged to work immediately. Illegal immigration should cease. Seasonal visas for agriculture should be available for farming, with employers making reasonable housing arrangements for these temporary workers. Immigrants who commit serious offenses should be deported. If those offenses rise to the level of terrorism, any immediate family/relatives should be deported as well. Minors who came here should have a path to citizenship. Adults who came here should be vetted individually, with a possible path to residency but no path to citizenship unless they return to their countries and apply legally.
Whoever is on the opposite side of Cenk, please ask him why he thinks it's A O K to let the world come to America, but Jews can't come home to Jerusalem.
Note that no one would be "undocumented" if they were documented ( photos etc) before they enter the country ( just as those who seek to fly must show a photo ID-- in contrast to voting of course).
Terrible debate question for such a serious issue, combined with a mostly ludicrous panel to discuss it. (I don't agree with Sohrab Ahmari, but at least he's a serious debater.) No. The answer is "no," but for the Democrats in charge, "no" means virtually no border control. I'm very pro-immigration, but what we have now: sneaky workarounds using planes and busses to send illegals across the country in the middle of the night and/or stopping them--if possible--and then releasing them with court dates years in the making is so obviously unworkable and un-American that I can't grasp the usefulness of such a *debate*.
I am just glad to see so many people that haven't bought into all the lies and illegal justifications that we have been fed. It is good to see the responses hopefully "CHANGE" can come.
It didn't happen with Obama and just got worse with present administration.
Trump had his faults but was right on the border not on spending.
Keep the faith in our Constitution and Bill of Rights which is under attack.
The problem with the question is that it focuses on an extreme, nonhistorical negative, closing the border, making it very difficult to argue for anything nuanced or positive, like expanded legal immigration with competent controls, because the current situation--if there's a meaningful difference between "illegal" and "undocumented" in this context, I can't see it--is so out of whack that closing the border will viewed as the only viable option to fixing things. A better question, ISTM, would be: Should illegal immigration be legal? (which seems to be the trajectory for most "no" voters) or, more simply, Should the U.S. have open borders?
The solution is easy. Australia had similar issue several years ago when people were coming on the boats causing many deaths also criminals were profiting on smuggling people.
What did Australia do? They passed a law stating that anyone crossing the border illegally has no possibility of ever getting asylum or legal visa and they would be deported immediately.
Also if you get caught employing illegal immigrants you face enormous fines, making entire market for illegal migrant labor dead.
Solution already exist, there is just no will in congress to do anything.
Congress doesnt really need to do anything. We have laws, passed by orior Congresses and signed by previous Presidents, allowing and indeed REQUIRING the arrest and detention of oeople here illegally.
Joe Biden has just ordered our law enforcement agencies not to enforce the law.
It is entirely as if we were attacked by a foreign nation and Joe Biden ordered our military not to defend us.
I am honestly baffled how anyone is confused about any of this. Its a simple situation with obvious solutions that can and course should be but will not be implemented.
The Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1952 has a section that includes the authority to close the border to all immigrants or to any class of immigrants. biden had the authority from day one to shut it down. Instead he kicked the doors open and hung up the Welcome sign. (And yes, I know I didn't capitalize his name. Caps imply respect...)
Blaming Congress is idiotic. But we are an idiotic nation, and a percentage of people can be relied on to believe even the most transparent lie.
You are correct as always UF. We have existing laws that provide fair, safe and humane processes for people to enter our country. They just aren’t as expedient as the democrats wish them to be. If any U.S. Senator or Congressperson really cared about the issue they would be trying to rewrite existing laws and provide funds to beef up the process. They don’t have the guts to reveal to the people that they prefer open borders. It’s much easier for them to kick the ball to the Executive branch and pretend to the American people that the President is in charge of the border. This is such a dirty scheme. I wish more people cared, but they won’t until this ongoing invasion reaches their own neighborhoods and eats into their respective town budgets. Or worse the criminals slipping through the borders attack us from within our own country.
The situation is really pretty simple. Biden in effect is the police chief. His job is to enforce the laws passed by his local legislature. His branch is the Executive Branch. The Legislature passes the laws, and the Executive implements them.
Biden, or his handlers, more accurately, has chosen not to enforce the laws. He has even told everyone NOT to enforce the laws, as a positive prohibition.
This is exactly equal to a police chief telling his cops not to arrest people who rob, steal, assault or otherwise harm people. We are literally seeing this sort of thing in many cities right now. This is just a national analogue of it.
The whole thing is pure madness. It has ZERO possible justification, and rests entirely on a contempt for most Americans, indifference to our well being, and contempt for the laws of the nation he swore to protect.
AMEN!!
You who applying logic and the law are all right. Enforcement!!!!!
I'm surprised and a bit disappointed that the otherwise excellent Free Press would chose to make this issue a debate.
Good point Parker! It is a crazy world we live in when logic and law seem like OPTIONS!!
The new fascism thinks on a global scale. Both America and Europe are being flooded with illegals as a means of destroying national borders and splintering national cohesion. Criminal "no go" sections appear in major cities, gang violence and rape escalate and citizens find public areas unsafe. This is followed by a faux Marxist/fascist campaign to stigmatize and criminalize the native born which, if one pays any attention to Europe at all, serves as a cover for criminalizing free speech and depression ultimately paving the way to the "object lesson" incarceration of concerned citizens. Add the "illegals first" burden placed on public funds and resources and the nations infrastructure begins to crumble. And that's the point.
Beneath it all is the overlooked decades long merger of criminal finance, organized crime, the surveillance community and the newest cartel member "big tech."
Joe Biden is a traitor who commits treason daily.
Stay baffled. Reject the gas lighting! :)
Yeah well Australia is different because they don’t have as many Democrat sacks of shit who are acting as parasites.
Japan also does not have many Democrat sacks of shit and Japan is pretty nice.
Once you eradicate the Democrat sacks of shit who are living among you as parasites, it’s pretty easy to have success as a nation.
But you first have to eradicate Democrats systematically by treating them as a pestilence.
Sadly, Australia has a governing majority of left, woke, Democrats (in our country they are called Labor and the Greens and the Teals). They are destroying our country with red tape, stopping all development (including mining and drilling), refusal to consider nuclear energy, teaching our children to hate their country and history, DEI in overdrive, believing in fairytale level NetZero targets, government over-control, small business is being strangled, IR laws that stymie any kind of effective productivity, etc. Australia is not far away from the US in terms of social and economic difficulties.
WOW, ScarlettH, take away your first sentence and you described the USA! Instead we have WOKE Progressive Democrats & RINOS running our country. Running us into the ground!
I was waiting for the final dem sacks
Of shit 😂😂
Me too.
Hey Kev, that where ya been, Japan? Did you find out how much they charge to become a citizen?
Japan is pretty frickin communist in reality but I respect what they’re doing.
Like you can’t just show up in Japan from fuckin El Salvador and request benefits. They would just put you back on the boat and give you the middle finger.
The Japanese don't care for non-Japanese.
as the Swiss don't care for non-Swiss, etc. etc. Many countries that our lefties hold in high esteem have extremely tight borders!
Indeed they do, and rightly so. It is a part of national defense.
The Japanese are plain ole racist and bully for them.
"No rules for me the CCP for thee."
They also used to have strict legal immigration rules. You had to prove you could do a job that they needed filled and prove you weren't going to be an economic burden. Just like in the USA .... oh, wait...
Congress is the enemy of the American people. Cashier virtually every one of them and things will improve immediately.
I’d have to say the judiciary is the enemy of the people also.
Yes, the left wing justices are. One of them doesn't know the difference between a man and a woman.
The supremes pass on taking so many cases that they should
She must have difficulty dating.
She has a goldfish.
Who can sex a goldfish except another goldfish?
Many are.
Word.
People are the enemy of the people... time to start banning people!
Big business doesn’t want a completely closed border. Example: both Tyson Foods and Chobani (dairy giant) reaching out to new illegals to come work for them.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-11/tyson-is-hiring-new-york-immigrants-for-jobs-no-one-else-wants
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/chobani-hired-hundreds-refugees-plants-124000534.html
These companies operate in States that do not require E-Verify.
There is the border itself. But there is also the businesses in America who want these low-cost workers. Look at your own State’s stance on E-Verify here:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/e-verify-requirements-by-state
Idaho is pretty Red leaning State. This is where Chobani has its largest manufacturing. State of Tennessee is also fairly Red. This is big manufacturing location for Tyson chicken.
Tax the ones who are doing this at the old rate of 48%. Tax rate for those who can prove 0 illegals employed? 20%.
I like it, Bruce. Controlling the border is both at the border and at the business incentive level. There’s a trade off of higher food prices if cheap, illegal labor is replaced by higher wage, native citizen labor. I’d say the security of our nation is most important. But I say that as an individual that isn’t food insecure. The rub on this is if food prices (and other prices go up because you shut off illegals) does this force more native citizens to have to rely on government hand outs more than they do today, because overall goods/services are more $ burdensome? Because we do know that there is a direct correlation between those dependent on government, usually voting much more for the party in favor of those handouts.
What an interesting discussion! Capitalist market freedom has reached its limits when the normal idea that anyone can fend for themselves no longer works. We're not discussing why this is the case. Of course, there are issues with upbringing and education, but the balance of supply and demand in the labor market is always changing. Thus, it's not just about rising prices but about a growing number of people who can't keep up with prices, and it's not because they are lazy, but simply because the labor market doesn't provide them with sufficient income anymore. This is a situation where inflation increasingly outpaces labor incomes. Therefore, we come to the point where the state will have to compensate for the falling incomes of such people, otherwise, the state faces the risk of riots. From your words, it follows that the problem is solved by means of cheap labor? Is this sort of a deal: citizenship in the future, or even just the possibility of working - in exchange for no prosecution for illegal border crossing? Did I understand your thesis correctly?
I was a teenager in El Paso in the early 1960s. At 16 I tried to get a job and spent an entire summer filling out applications. Why would anyone hire me? They could get an illegal for less money and could keep them for the next 30 years where I would have to move to part time and/or work weekends when school started.
PS I was working at a restaurant in a town with 125 population at 8 years old. Also worked summers with my grandfather who was a ranch foreman. He told my wife he had me on a horse with him at 3 and on a horse by myself at 5. They ranch was 23 square miles, 30 horses, 350 cows, 3500 sheep, and about 500 goats. One year there were two Braceros (work visa set up between the US and Mexico:. But normally it was just grandad, grandmother, and in the summer me. Great times but also lots of hard work.
Thx for your reply, Alexey. I don’t have it figured out but I hope upcoming TFP debate explores these topics. There is a cause/effect of too much, too little illegal immigration (and resulting cheap labor). Could certain businesses operate profitably w/ less illegal labor? I’d say yes, but perhaps not all.
The other part of this debate I hope they touch is impact to Social Security system, if no more illegal, cheap labor. USA birth rate is now 1.78 per women & standard logic I’ve read is you need at least 2.1 per women to keep economy humming.
What’s the future impact to USA Social Security system of our low fertility rates and shit down of all illegals? In USA it’s currently about 2 workers to every retiree and 6.2% FICA tax to support. In 1950, the figures were ~16 workers to each retiree, and 1% to 2% payroll deduction. We need to have more workers to prop up these Entitlement Programs, increase the tax on existing workers, or cut back benefits.
There’s several circles of impact around immigration that don’t get a lot of debate, and these are a few of them.
Matt - your comments about the birth rate are accurate, however if we are planning on using immigrants to provide our population growth we should be vetting the candidates carefully. Look at where Europe is right now - they effectively outsourced their reproduction to Muslim immigrants that they then failed to assimilate into their culture. Their problems are only beginning.
I understand, it's a serious thesis that relates not only to the USA but also to all developed countries. I spoke about this situation and its solution at a TED event in 2013. Of course, that was in another life of mine, in a galaxy far, far away. There is a lot of statistics on this topic, and all of it is extremely disheartening. I agree that attracting young people to the country can partially solve this problem, but the speed of aging and retirement is rapidly outpacing birth rates, and not just due to the declining proportion of youth. Education and modern values in general are reducing the need for marriage, especially the need to have children and other commitments. Here in the discussion, it is claimed that a large part of immigrants receive welfare, rather than work. I.e., these people do not in any way reduce the cost of labor (if this is true, I have no data).
However, if we look at the problem you mentioned in the medium term perspective + the inevitable contraction of the labor market due to the increasingly wide use of algorithms and AI, it can be safely assumed: The proportion of people who will fall out of the labor market and not return anywhere will grow.
While the cost of automation in some sectors is higher than the cost of labor, even of illegals, this situation will change sharply within a 5-7 year horizon. (I live in Silicon Valley and follow the agenda).
Once again, thank you. At the very least, I've received several versions of hypotheses about the reasons for the increasing flow of immigrants.
By the way, since the United States Census is conducted every ten years, with the last one held in 2020, changes in population size due to migration after 2020 will not have a direct impact on the allocation of seats in the House of Representatives and the Electoral College until the next census, scheduled for 2030. This means that an increase in the number of migrants, regardless of their status, will not be able to influence the outcomes of the federal elections in 2024 or 2028 through changes in the number of seats in the House of Representatives or votes in the Electoral College, as the distribution of these seats will remain unchanged until the redistribution that follows the 2030 census.
Drugs, abortion, illegal immigrants. What do these have in common? Well, they all operate under the same laws of supply and demand as normal economic activity. We have yet to learn that trying to cut off the supply of drugs (at which we are still failing badly) will not stop drug abuse; only treatment and education will--cut off the demand, no need for supply. Same with abortion--states that want to outlaw it also have shitty or nonexistent sex education programs. Wow, I wonder why those states have demand for abortion? With increased STD levels added.
With immigrants, we failed to stop them when we were trying, and we're not even trying. But if the demand for that cheap labor is dramatically reduced, perhaps as Bruce suggests, the supply will fade away.
That’s a great idea 👏👏.
Thankfully I refuse to buy anything from Tyson or Chobani.
Me too and I sure did like those little White Castle cheese Sliders... Damn shame they fall under the Tyson umbrella.
There are many others besides these two companies, employing illegal workers. Anywhere there’s a need for labor that company can’t attract native worker, and that State doesn’t mandate E-Verify, the current system is ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’
I am aware.
Don't forget Arkansas, I'm sitting here watching it. But damn, we're getting mostly Asians. They learned to make donuts. The Hispanics are on their 2nd generation, and they're doing all the outdoor work. Our locals get student loans, buy a new pick up truck, and do meth.
The Chobani plant in Idaho is astronomical in S-i-z-e. It goes on forever by the Interstate.
Yes, that Chobani plant is in Twin Falls, Idaho and there has been economic growth in that community as a result. I could list off so many communities across America who would love to have that manufacturing in their backyard. There are many circles of other businesses and families supported by that plant. What if Idaho implemented mandatory E-Verify for private business? Would Chobani then look to move manufacturing to another, non E-Verify state? Switching costs are high to do this. This is kind of thing that makes the border debate not so black & white.
It’s not near the interstate.
They also did away with their mail in ballots at the turn of the 20th century ( its over a 100years ago) they couldn’t control the mail ins they realized it was a rigged system - it makes one realize here in America how slow and stupid we are🥲🥲and now Biden is telling us we can’t say illegal we have to say undocumented citizen it beggars belief!
I was wondering if someone breaks into my home, are they an undocumented family member?
😂😂😂yip think they are, but ask them first they might not like what they broke into and then most likely without offending them with any terminology which might not be PC, they might just go away or move onto the next blue state.
Raziel
Right on. Cancel the debate. It is a waste of time. The border is open because Biden opened it.
Although I like this idea, I’m not particularly enamored with Australia’s handling of issues, since the COVID debacle. Unfortunately, that makes me less interested in hearing about it, which is probably not the correct attitude to adopt. Good point though in that very workable solutions do exist. It’s an election year, and this issue is somewhat of a political hot potato that has also been kicked down the road many times by previous administrations , like the proverbial can.
Exactly the right process. When did breaking the law become a debatable issue?
I am especially supportive of fines for those that hired illegals. These employers are enablers.
Every single person that employs an illegal is more responsible, think farms, landscaping, construction, day labor, restaurants, hotels and on and on. If the illegals could not make money they wouldn't come here. American greed! We complain all day about immigration and illegals but look away when hiring one just to save a few $.
Right on. Cancel the debate. It is a waste of time. The border is open because Biden opened it.
Honestly, it's an easy solution.
1. CLOSE the border. Like COMPLETELY it shut it down. Announce it to the world, we are shutting it down until...
2. We sift through all the illegals who are here. If you are here and want to work, LINE UP. You will work and you will be TAXED up the ass like all working Americans, but there will be a path to citizenship. If you don't like it....
3. SHIP back all criminals and deviants. During the above steps...
4. Work on all immigration laws to rectify all border and immigration problems, then...
5. Re-open border under a much tighter security not letting EVERY GOD DAMN LIVING BEING CROSS OVER.
No path to citizenship for illegals. It's grossly unfair to the law abiding people who wait endlessly in line.
Yup, I agree.
I like the Australian solution better. Incarcerate CEOs of businesses who hire undocumented Democrats.
Eisenhauer closed the border in the 50s and deport all the illegals he could get his hands on. So it can be done it the next president has the backbone.
I don't think it's the case down under that the business owners own the government. Here, business wants as many easily exploitable illegal workers they can get their hands on. They generously donate to politicians of all stipes to grease the wheels, who in turn just throw up their hands, "Well, what are we gonna do?" and let them flood in.
Seal and fortify the border, station the U.S. Army along it, put up signs in every common language that anyone attempting to cross the border will be shot on sight -- and actually follow through.
Then round up and deport every single illegal who has crossed under Biden. It won't be easy and it won't be pretty. But neither will absorbing 10+ million unvetted invaders, many of whom are criminals and most of whom have no intention of assimilating into American culture. Our so-called "leaders" have brought the dregs of the third world into every corner of America and are asking us to invite them into our homes. Expect theirs, of course.
You forgot one important step: Deport the progressive wing of the Democratic Party or relocate them to a facility on Guantanamo bay.
Nah, you gotta beat 'em with your brains and guns -- that's going to turn out to be the truth of it.
No "path to citizenship" ever.
Nobody earning $60,000 a year or under is getting TAXED UP THE ASS. Most of them pay nothing, unless you're referring to FICA, which is unsustainable at it's current payouts, so give up your Medicare, if you like to live common sense.
WORD!
Build a wall as tight as the Egyptians have with Gaza.
Well-played.
They wouldn’t do that to their fellow Arab Muslim brothers in the struggle against Zionism, would they!?
Gee... what should we do about the border crisis?
1) Revert to the policies in place on January 19, 2021
2) Find all the illegal aliens that have arrived since January 20, 2021 and send them home.
3) Apologize to all Americans
This is pretty damn simple. What is to debate?
Agree with the exception of “that have arrived since January 2021”. Scratch those words and we are aligned.
This isn't about immigration. This is an outright invasion. And our current government is letting it happen. They don't care who's coming in or why. They are NOT protecting us. It's TREASON.
I disagree. They know exactly why. Population counts and capturing more house seats in cities. Potential, permanent votes for Dem candidates. Easy, really.
I agree. What the ever senile Joe has done is treason.
The border crisis is 100% on Biden. His time in office is historic in that for the first time ever, an American presidency defaulted to a position in polar opposition to federal law. Instead of the conventional “block, detain, deport and deter of all previous Democratic Party presidents,” the Biden administration has taken the formal stated position that southern border traffic should be made “safe, humane and orderly” into the nation’s interior. No American president has ever decided that, as a matter of national policy, the executive branch would abdicate the enforcement of immigration statutes and basically erect turnstiles at the border, refusing to stymie illegal immigration as required in well-established federal laws. For the first time since federal immigration laws were passed in 1903, a president effectively ended deportation of every kind and established in its place a first-ever sanctuary nation.
https://www.euphoricrecall.net/p/la-invitacion
No. It should be stopped tomorrow!
I find it mind boggling these are the best people they could find to have this debate. It’s like they’re trying to make us dumber. If you’re going to have a debate structure it like a debate - here’s someone’s who had their ranch overrun on the border. Here’s someone who is employing migrants and the cost/benefit. Here’s hoteliers making serious cash on this “crisis.” Here’s someone who works for an NGO that’s bringing people here. Here’s someone working against those NGOs.
This “debate” is talking head morons who know nothing about anything… how is that POSSIBLY the best someone with resources can come up with?!
Yeah, this seems more like a gaudy circus performance than a legitimate debate about a very serious issue. Kinda disappointed in TFP.
I agree. I understand it might be entertaining in some fashion, but their actual hands on knowledge of the situation is not existent-even if I was in Texas I wouldn’t buy a ticket. My husband was raised near El Paso and there are plenty of people who can speak to the situation.
How do we fix it? Easy. Grow some guts and deport the entire lot of them. And if people protest, tough. This tidal wave is ruining our country. Worse, it's deliberate. A country with sane people would grab the ringleader - JR Biden - out of his lair, walk him to the nearest lamp post and stretch his neck. Just like the justice meted out to similarly destructive autocratic fools such as the Ceaucescus. Don't like it? Tough. I don't like my country being invaded and ruined.
Ceaucescus was a brutal murderous pig and got what he deserved.
Biden is a corrupt traitor, and should get what such a person deserves.
Don’t be surprised if black helicopters start hovering over your home every night.
I've baited them with worse. Note however it was conditioned on us still being sane. Given that we're certifiably insane as a nation, there was no threat. Besides what's one more MAGA extremist white nationalist?
The premise is a lie. Nobody is asking for closed borders. People are asking for enforcement of immigration law.
The American citizens who are descendants of legal immigrants are rightfully angry and confused by the catering to those who do not even make any pretense of attempting to follow the laws set by congress in order to arrive on our shores. It's a bullshit argument to say Americans hate "immigrants." Americans hate politicians who like to conflate those who follow the law with those who don't. A special place in hell awaits those semantic language-fuckers.
Agreed. I'm so sick of "Oh, ( insert Trump, MAGA, Conservative, White, etc) is a threat to our Democracy"... blah blah blah.
He’s such a threat that we must prevent people from voting for him! In the name of democracy 🤡
And barring that, try to get him in jail.
What should we do about the fact that lowlife intellectual pussies who attended college are allowing psychopathic Neanderthals to invade our country??
I don’t know.
Obviously the NGOs and the drug dealers and the various Democrats involved in this human trafficking scheme should be hunted and killed by the military.
But we won’t do that because this country is already dead. However, we still have time for some more homosexual parades so we should do those as the public suicide of America continues.
What should we do about the fact that lowlife intellectual pussies who attended college are allowing psychopathic Neanderthals to invade our country??
Arm ourselves. A 9/11 or 10/7 may be coming to a location near you.
Correction: WILL BE. It's just a matter of whether it happens before or after the election.
I sincerely hope it never comes. But if it does, before the election should wipe out Brandon's re-election.
Hitler much dude?
Tell me which homosexual parade you’re going to attend this summer and I’ll buy you a snowcone. As an olive branch.
Does that sound like a fair deal, cupcake?
You seem really focused on gay parades. That and apparently the purity of the blood of the nation and cleansing the country of those that you feel are somehow contributing the the tainting of that purity. Which, kinda sounds like the kind of topics that made Mussolini and Hitler cream their pants. But, if you're really interested in gay parades, that's cool too.
Really, make it sound as hip as you can, the Hitler comparison is fucking tired. So is the Mussolini one. Make an actual argument.
"blood and soil"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T_98uT1IZs
Kevin I think Bari should add you to the panel with you and Ann it will at least be amusing.
Bogus Question: Very few of us are in favor of closing the border. Most of us are in favor of regaining control of our border.
Why do they always use images of families when the vast majority are military aged single men.
How are their clothes always so clean?
This likewise applies to the Muslim hordes on Greek islands like Lesbos too. When The New York Times refused to publish my comments on the subject -- this a few years after it actually ran an article about the depredations wrought by "refugees" and how Greek farms and homes on Lesbos were despoiled -- I realized that this heretofore newspaper of note would not print anything derogatory about Muslim men invading people's countries, and that was a decision, against all facts, it would stick to.
The Times had to work hard to take photos of women and children. The migrants are almost exclusively men in their 20s and 30s.
Controlling our border is not rocket science. Immigrants should obtain pre-screening and authorization from abroad except in rare instances (e.g. slaughter of Yazidi Christians) with Executive and/or Legislative approval required. Those who cross without such authorization should be immediately deported across the same border they crossed. Legal immigration should be increased, and it should target the needs of the U.S. economy in terms of skills or capital the individual brings. Legal immigrants should be allowed and encouraged to work immediately. Illegal immigration should cease. Seasonal visas for agriculture should be available for farming, with employers making reasonable housing arrangements for these temporary workers. Immigrants who commit serious offenses should be deported. If those offenses rise to the level of terrorism, any immediate family/relatives should be deported as well. Minors who came here should have a path to citizenship. Adults who came here should be vetted individually, with a possible path to residency but no path to citizenship unless they return to their countries and apply legally.
Next question.
Whoever is on the opposite side of Cenk, please ask him why he thinks it's A O K to let the world come to America, but Jews can't come home to Jerusalem.
Send Cenk packing too. Sick of these America hating clowns.
Cenk’s a blabbering buffoon.
Cenk’s a cunk
Note that no one would be "undocumented" if they were documented ( photos etc) before they enter the country ( just as those who seek to fly must show a photo ID-- in contrast to voting of course).
They all manage to get fake IDs when they arrive. It's big business in NYC.
Terrible debate question for such a serious issue, combined with a mostly ludicrous panel to discuss it. (I don't agree with Sohrab Ahmari, but at least he's a serious debater.) No. The answer is "no," but for the Democrats in charge, "no" means virtually no border control. I'm very pro-immigration, but what we have now: sneaky workarounds using planes and busses to send illegals across the country in the middle of the night and/or stopping them--if possible--and then releasing them with court dates years in the making is so obviously unworkable and un-American that I can't grasp the usefulness of such a *debate*.
I am just glad to see so many people that haven't bought into all the lies and illegal justifications that we have been fed. It is good to see the responses hopefully "CHANGE" can come.
It didn't happen with Obama and just got worse with present administration.
Trump had his faults but was right on the border not on spending.
Keep the faith in our Constitution and Bill of Rights which is under attack.
The problem with the question is that it focuses on an extreme, nonhistorical negative, closing the border, making it very difficult to argue for anything nuanced or positive, like expanded legal immigration with competent controls, because the current situation--if there's a meaningful difference between "illegal" and "undocumented" in this context, I can't see it--is so out of whack that closing the border will viewed as the only viable option to fixing things. A better question, ISTM, would be: Should illegal immigration be legal? (which seems to be the trajectory for most "no" voters) or, more simply, Should the U.S. have open borders?