I plan on listening later today, but one quick comment on the sub-title: "When homelessness, mental illness, and vigilantism collide on the subway."
I strongly disagree with the use of 'vigilantism' in this case. The root word, vigilante, is defined as follows:
vigilante
vĭj″ə-lăn′tē
noun
A person who is not a member of law enforcement but who pursues and punishes persons suspected of lawbreaking.
A member of a vigilance committee.
A person who considers it their own responsibility to uphold the law in their neighbourhood.
Not one of those apply in this case and it's use exposes a bias on the part of the author.
***************
ETA:
I've finally had the chance to listen to this episode and I found it extremely nuanced, honest and fair, much to my surprise based on the description in the title and the above article. I highly recommend everyone listen.
I stand by my OP, this was not the act of of a vigilante. A vigilante is someone on a horse, with a rope, actively looking for a victim...
This begs the question, why such an incendiary title?
Was it because of an inherent bias on the part of the host/author? If that's the case then how do you explain the nuanced conversation?
Was it to generate clicks and comments? If that's the case then, as others have said, I question the editorial path of TFP. You're no better than CNN in that case.
Try to keep up. The NEW word for a crazed, dangerous, violent career criminal with more than 40 arrests is "victim" and the NEW word for a brave veteran who risks his life to save others is "vigilante"
If the races were reversed, the insane aggressor was white and the choker was black, The choker would be haled a hero by the press and the PC/Woke wingnuts and no charges would be filed.
You are so right. Even heard of Tony Timpa or Justine Damond? Didn't think so. Check the number of Google hits. Justine Damond gets 31,100 hits. George Floyd gets 17.3 million hits.
Exactly! If it had been a black Marine who restrained and accidentally killed a white homeless man with 44 mostly violent arrests and who threatened multiple people, the Marine would be hailed as a hero and lauded on CNN, MSNBC, and The View.
Yip I haven’t started the podcast and I’m already feeling a sense of don’t go there. Daniel Penny should be awarded a medal and should have been invited to the WH to be given the medal.
Pravda rules all. There’s a downside to all of this: if you get in real trouble the odds someone who can help will help are plummeting. The cost is too high.
That's the plan. The playbook should seem familiar to anyone who knows anything about history. Pacify the populace by punishing anyone who intervenes. Make sure no one is armed. Then let the utopia begin in earnest. All that's in the way is a few million defenseless deplorables. So just get rid of them.
3. Criminals are not held accountable for their actions. Punishment must be great enough to deter crime and be consistently applied. Children learn at an early age how far to push the boundaries and what they can get away with. Adults, mental illness or not, do the same thing. If they cannot discern between right and wrong and are a threat to self or others, they should be institutionalized. The cost of the punishment must exceed the reward of the crime.
Way off base here. Mental illness causes you to lose your mind, which is why intervention, doctors, health workers, group homes and hospitals, are ecessary and should be mandatory.
The problem arises when mental health and criminality intersect. In modern times successful deployment of a mental health defense to a felony charge is about the only, if not the only, way to secure involuntary commitment to a mental hospital for a significant amount of time. But not every offender with mental illness can justify a successful insanity defense. IOW under the law you can be both mentally ill and a criminal. A good defense lawyer will use what you are saying - that mentally ill people are not responsible for their conduct - to mitigate punishment and thus reduce a criminal sentence. Which is why there is in essence a revolving door of mentally ill people through the criminal justice system.
The problem must be addressed before that occurs. And, there's a difference between the people we are describing, and a vast array of insanity pleas. People suffering from mental illness that is chronic is different from those wishing to cop a plea. Mental illness, not temporary mental health issues, is different. In mental illness, people may be aware of their actions but cannot put them in the context of reality the same as someone without the affliction. Also, most mentally ill patients only become violent when pushed to extremes. In the case of Jordan Neely, he suffered from extreme neglect by everyone, including all of us who look away because there is nothing we can do. The result is this tragic outcome between someone very far gone and someone intervening to help in an extreme situation. The situation was extreme. If you've ever witnessed mental health workers in a hospital trying to subdue an out of control patient, it would be clear what happened here. Jordan Neely shouldn't have been on the streets in that condition. It is an abject failure all the way around that now has to be meted out in our fast-becoming corrosive legal system.
First, while there is in the popular culture such a thing as "temporary insanity" meaning sudden passion which makes one lose their mind it is rare and even rarer for it to work before a jury. When it does it is always an example of jury nullification a/ka the victim got what he/she deserved. The use to "cop a plea" is even rarer because judges and DAs fear two things - appeals courts and bad press which will cause them to lose a re-election bid. Second, if mental illness should be addressed prior to the intersection of mental illness and criminal conduct that, by definition, cannot be the responsibility of the criminal justice system as the CJS requires that an act or omission of a duty occur to take action. Which is a good thing. If we literally criminalize thought we are done. If the current CJS, including law enforcement, is "corrosive" it is because it is unduly, and very unfairly IMO, burdened by legislators and executives, and the families and peers of mentally ill people who call 911 "just to get him/her some help" all of whom have dumped mental health crisis response on count on the CJS. The CJS exists to enforce existing laws. Cops are trained to secure compliance first and sort out the rest later. That actually works fairly well until faced with a mentally ill person. Or a person enraged because they are being told daily they are victims, oppressed, mistreated, but that is a different scenario. To use the CJS to handle the mentalky ill, criminal or not, is the rankest kicking the can down the road. Third, I agree that mentally ill people cannot control their behavior to varying degrees. Some can sometimes. Some not at all. Others can pretty well, usually if the illness is not extreme or if they are receiving adequate treatment. Mentally ill people should receive care. To do so would also address in part homelessness. To the extent they are failed by anyone I put that failure squarely on the shoulders of the mental health profession and establishment. In my experience both are exceedingly concerned about remuneration for services though which means poor people or people with resources who have alienated their loved ones fall through the cracks. Third, if the mentally ill are roaming the streets at will, when they pose a threat to others the others are justified in defending themselves as Mr. Penny did. Fourth, to get back to the subject of the article - vigilantes- I do think that given the destruction of the CJS, again including law enforcement, by progressives and their policies that the single greatest unifier of all of us, the Rule of Law, is being torn asunder. As that happens ordinary, law-abiding citizens see that the police are not able to assist when they are under threat so many will begin to assume that responsibility for themselves. Call that vigilantism if you will, I call it taking personal responsibility for your survival. This is evidenced all across the nation. On the subways in NYC. In the hoods on Chicago. In South Texas as a result of criminals flowing across the border including run of the mill criminals but also organized criminals as the cartels are divvying up the nation into their respective territories. It does not seem to be happening in Cali, Oregon or Washington because those folks do not seem to have the will the survive. And despite the comments on here about men stepping up in defense of others, which I admire, commend, and encourage, women are increasingly taking responsibility for their own safety. Gun sales to women are through the roof as is their attendance at gun safety courses and self-defense classes. Fifth, I have not witnessed mental health workers trying to restrain someone in crisis but I have seen several body cam videos of police officers responding to same and I have witnessed bailiffs in a courtroom do so.
It’s MUCH CHEAPER to build housing and shelters then to provide mental health institutions that’s why politicians call it homelessness caused by poverty instead of mental health problems. Most of this ppl cannot sustain living on their own in housing they are being provided, cannot take care of their basic needs!
While in college my, son very idealistic young men, was trying to help this very sweet homeless person by getting him on the program which provided housing etc. This poor sole needed institutional treatment instead. He couldn’t live on his own, staying in shelters instead and in the end committed suicide!
This is the truth. Some people cannot live independently. Some need 24 hour supervision not to harm themselves or others. It’s all expensive but so is prison.
I wonder if the bleeding-heart author of this pity piece had or had known, say, elderly parents or children on that train and they told him how fearful it was to have been there at that moment? Would his heart still bleed? Or, like NIMBY's, would it be different if it impacted the lives of him or his loved ones?
I agree. Vigilantism is a gross misrepresentation of what occurred. I'm quite sure the man who subdued him had no intention of him dying.
We made a huge error in judgment when as a country we closed all of our psychiatric facilities.
I am an RN and I distinctly remember doing a rotation in PSYCH in a LOCKED WARD AT BRONX STATE. The patients in that ward were truly psychotic including grandiose delusions, hallucinations, and included MURDERERS and CATATONICS. It was a very scary experience for me so I can appreciate the intense fear the people on that subway platform had.
PARDON ME KINGS--I'M A PAID SUBSCRIBER BUT FOR SOME REASON I'M ONLY ALLOWED TO SHARE IN "REPLY".
Any American who displays citizenship, personal agency and responsibility in his community must be villainized and threatened by the fascist left and (that turd in the punchbowl of American life) the MSM. The homeless/mental illness problem (and don't forget fentanyl) is an intentional creation of the same lie through its teeth globalism that allowed Wall Street to loot American savings and pension funds in 2008. . The conflation of crime with revolution by the "burn Baby burn" DNC to ensure that small business is destroyed and shit stained chaos reigns in American streets, parks and neighborhood is the logical extension and consequence of its six decade war on education and the middle class. The weaponization of poverty, crime and homelessness through the capture and distortion of the judicial system and (what you gonna do about it sissy) suspension of the rule of law as a means of inflicting terror on American's defines the DNC and the Davos/CCP agenda it serves.
Fear, loathing and assault cheerfully brought to you by the same people who gave you the Ku Klux Clan.
Another failure of progressive ideas, which they try to cover up with ridiculous claims of “compassion”.
They also have been trying to “normalize” this for many years, talking about “mental health issues- 1 in 6 people suffer from mental health issues!- and then conflating that with serious mental illness. It’s all the same, we should treat them just like your cousin who had a little bout with depression. How dare you suggest that these people should be forced into treatment against their will?
I have witnessed true psychosis and severe mental illness. It's in a league of its own. You are correct. Misguided progressives who have not experienced how dangerous it is.
Has very little to do with "progressive ideas." Ronald Reagan, for example, was pushing deinstitutionalization during his time as Governor of California. To not recognize what these places were like in the post WW2 era until deinstitutionalization is a mistake. Psychiatrists and psychologist are the ones you should blame and these folks were authoritarians, probably mostly conservative (but that doesn't really matter). Frontal lobotomies were ubiquitous. Electroconvulsive therapy were crudely used. Patients were strapped down and isolated for days and weeks. This is what folks like RD Laing (Scottish) and Frantz Fannon (French) were reacting too. True both these folks were marxists and then more Europeans philosophers like Foucault and other post modernist got ahold of mental illness and criminality, but that was after deinstitutionalization was already being pushed by politicians of all stripes. Along comes antipsychotic medications that do work, but require mentally ill people to adhere to a drug regime which pushed the idea forward even more. From the very beginning the psychiatrists and psychology has failed, whether conservative or progressive. Recognizing failed policies should be the first thing we do instead of pointing fingers. Finally, arresting someone for attempting to deal with a known violently mentally ill person is the last thing we should do and does nothing but poison the already crazed environment.
Well said, sir. Cook County Sheriff Tom Dart said several years ago that Cook County (Chicago) Jail was the nation's biggest insane asylum, and that should not be the case. He's right. We decided to "let the cops handle it" and that's been a disaster both for the ;police and the mentally ill. It really is time to rebuild our mental health structure, including involuntary confinement for those acting aggressively or criminally. Cops should not have to deal with it, and jails certainly aren't equipped.
The cause of de-institutionalization is, as you correctly point out, not a "progressive" mantra. Cons and progs were cheerleading equally to get rid of "Cuckoo's Nest" hellholes, and went way too far. They closed the mental health hospitals while promising an equal amount of "community-based care," and of course, never delivered, because the nation needed just one more B-1 bomber.
Somebody needs to help me with this. I don’t see a failure of progressive ideas. If progressives were getting their way, we would be throwing tons of money at the situation. But we are not. Instead, we have a homeless/mental illness problem. I’m not saying I have a solution, but the truth is that Republicans want to do even less and do not support government healthcare of any kind, physical or mental.
The way to solve the problem is to elect people who actually solve problems. I see very few in either party.
The book San Fransicko by Michael Shellenberger is a good source for the history of progressive policies that have led to the current disaster we see on the streets of San Francisco.
Cool. I’m going to read it. In honesty I’m trying to develop an opinion on exactly this problem. My knowledge is admittedly weak, but I have not seen real, implementable solutions from either side.
The author, Michael Shellenberger, was active in the progressive community endorsing the various “leave them be” policies. He came to change his views while seeing and investigating the harm done. He also quotes many people who work in the trenches who oppose the policies because they cause more harm than good.
Agree wholeheartedly. Vigilante is absolutely the wrong word. Author should have done better work in coming up with a more appropriate one before writing. Hard to come up with, though. Interventionist?
I even think “Killing” in the title is inflammatory and biased (sounds predatory and intentional). Just straightforwardly say “The Death of...” and then let people draw their own conclusions.
Moksha66, on the night this happened, Mr. Perry and 2 others (one Black) were attempting to restrain a deranged man, while constantly calling out for passengers to call the police.
When the police interviewed Mr. Perry and all others on the subway, they determined Mr. Perry had not committed a crime. He was allowed to go home.
Next day, with much fanfare and media attention, the WOKE DA has Mr. Perry arrested and charged with “murder” - now just waiting to determine if manslaughter or worse.
Additionally it has been reported that people were calling 911 before Mr. Penny and the other gentlemen acted. I further understand that conduct has to be really bad to resort to 911.
Maybe the author was motivated by sensationalism and not the facts. It sounds PC/Woke to me. The first word that springs to a left wingnut's lips is racist and, in this case, racist vigilante. It's in their DNA.
The Free Press is part of the Unipress. Just as anything labeling itself Democratic usually has authoritarian Socialism, if not full blown totalitarian Marxism of some flavour, at its root (I twice typed rot there!). Same problem when it was "Common Sense". Anything labelled such is very often either uncommon or nonsense. "Common Sense" was originally I presume echoing Paine's pamphlet of 1776, which might be both. It certainly misconstrues the English constitution.
There was nonsense here from the gitgo. We could dimsiss that as growing pains; but the juvenile delinquency has carried over into adulthood.
Welcome to NYT: The Jerusalem Edition.
Ironically, when I read the Israeli press I find it more of an actual Fourth Estate holding Bibi and co's feet to the flames. Even if, as it seems to be, the TaNaKh is the 2nd century BC prophylatic fiction of priests, a considerable part of it is "dissident" slagging of Judaismos and God. In fact it bangs on in this fashion so much I honestlyly think that is its point; exactly one eighty to how it traditionally understood. The "Self Hating Jew" is actually baked into to the tradition and legitimised by it!
When 100% of the passengers stand behind the so-called "vigilante" it's going to be difficult to prove otherwise in court. Then again, a Manhattan jury...
In fact, I think the jury *should* be comprised of only passengers in that subway car. Can't get any fairer than that.
Somebody else in here has already commented that a passenger told Penny he was dying. And I expect the DA rmto charge the others who laid hands on Mr. Newly to be able to elicit testimony against Penny. I am glad there is video.
Sadly, there will be passengers who call him out. People who cowered or moved to the end of the train. Who, at the time were relived that someone did something, but later when the MSM told them what to think, change what actually happened in their minds and it becomes their new truth.
One problem with substack in general and Free Press in particular is that there is an absence of editors. A good editor would have replaced vigilantism because it does not take the self defense aspect of this event into account.
I’m not talking about so many words in a transcript. I’m talking about the internet, and Substack, and the free press. I subscribed to tfp because Bari is such a good writer, reasonable, and an excellent observer. It’s a bonus that her wife is so funny. Not all those who write for tfp are as gifted as they are. I think some may benefit from an editor.
Yeah, Bari Weiss is so full of herself with her sanctimony. She obviously needs an editor ... oh, wait, she IS the editor.
I jumped at reading that word - vigilantism - in the subhead. It is really insane usage here: a train car full of citizens going about their days a madman enters and begins to threaten folks, a former Marine steps forward to protect people. And Weiss calls it "vigilantism"?
Really, Bari Weiss, you are just a girl from Pittsburgh, not a public intellectual. You need to take your attitude down a notch. Or two.
I get it now. She changed from Common Sense to Free Press. Common Sense was too constrained to impart the liberal bias ingrained from so many years in her circles. Free Press fits the all the news fit to print narrative.
Either Bari agreed with vigilantism as the correct description, or knew using it would spark so many clicks; maybe both actually.
Hi Rosemarie MacAllister. First, I feel a kinship to your last name, which is my wife’s maiden surname.
Secondly, I just completed the podcast, and you are correct- it’s well done. Especially liked Rafael Mangual‘s thoughts. Plus that Kat called out the stupidity of Cortez’s and Tlaib’s race bating idioticy. That those two fools have been re-elected compounds the divisiveness gripping our politics.
The podcast, which was not led by Bari, was opposite to the written intro, which helps both our comments. Mine, that whoever approved Eli’s written intro - I assume Bari - decided that divisive language would help drive traffic; and yours, listen to the podcast and then make your comments. Had the written intro mimicked the podcast, I’d bet the initial comments from so many would have been very different.
I do a lot of picking and choosing these days about what news and commentary I give time to. If your suggestion here is correct, it backfired with me because I don’t waste my time on stupid takes and the headline made it sound like this would be exactly that. I agree that Bari--or someone--needs to do a better job with language. Clickbait—if that's what this title is—should not be the goal of a serious news outlet. Providing all the relevant facts impartially is good journalism.
That said, I’m glad the podcast did not live down to its intro title. I came directly to the comment section to try to find out that info, so thanks Rosemarie and Michael for that.
"Really, Bari Weiss, you are just a girl from Pittsburgh, not a public intellectual. You need to take your attitude down a notch. Or two."
Or, you could find a blog more to your taste, rather than take sanctimonious potshots at the proprietress. This is her space, so she gets to run what she wants.
He has every right to opine. I have every right to opine that calling her belittling names is juvenile and if he thinks so little of her he might be happier reading other blogs.
You have to see it from her perspective. Bari is a life long and devoted Leftist, she just isn't radical enough for the modern neo-Marxist Left and was thus excommunicated.
As she remains to the left of center though, a pity propaganda manifesto such as this is something I would still expect her to embrace.
Which is not to suggest in any way this is quality journalism. It's pure reactionary crap which belongs in the pages of Jacobin or Mother Jones. Or the NYT.
I listened to the podcast. The repeated use of vigilante and its derivative forms was wholly inappropriate. The rampant bias conveyed by its use was palpable.
Note, finding the repeated use of vigilante wrong (in the headline no less) rests not on a left or right wing analysis but on a "news ought to be as neutral and as accurate as possible" viewpoint. In this instance, Honestly and The Free Press utterly failed in this regard.
I was just about to say the exact same thing. To me, someone who steps up to protect people is not a vigilante...he or she is a protector...a selfless person...maybe a hero.
Will listen to the discussion, but that term leaped out at me, too.
Totally agree, Kings Full. Mr. Perry, with help from 2 others (one was Black) stepped in to restrain a deranged man - why skin color matters here is more Left Woke BS! The Left searching for another George Floyd to further divide this Country.
WHY Mr. Perry’s PAST military service listed as his identifier, rather than his CURRENT college student??
I also want to add, it isn’t the police who failed to do their duty! It is the Liberal Politicians who control the Blue Cities (remember their rally cries “Defund Police”) who have failed Mr. Neely and the citizens!!
How many times had Neely been arrested, but Liberal DAs & Judges let him go back out into the street/subway to harass and terrorize the public!
Some honesty here would be appreciated, and necessary if a solution can truly be determined.
I almost want to think that the wrong-headed use of 'vigilante' was because the author has internalized the progressive attitude against any form of self-defense. I note these kinds of things but am not surprised.
The alternative explanation - that it was purposefully chosen to spark outrage and clicks/replies here - makes me concerned for the editorial path of this site.
That's what immediately jumped out at me too. I don't listen to these pieces, but just from that it was clear that this is just another biased leftist propaganda piece pretending to be even-handed.
Much of what passes for journalism these days is just regurgitation of tweets or other inconsequential opinion. But that is a problem and those who would do better should. Words matter.
I saw vigilantism in the title and scanned the description to see what speaker listed would justify the use of such an inflammatory and inaccurate term.. Believe me, I won’t waste any time listening.
Try not to react. This is a complex issue made more complex by making assumptions. To cut through, can we agree that existing government policy is flawed and some politicians are politicizing this flaw for their own personal gain instead of doing something about it. This case should not be decided by the courts - it should be addressed by change in the system so something like this does not happen again. I don’t care what you call it - vigilantism or heroism - it should not have had to happen and it did.
How about the entire woke liberal ideas are a failure. Vigilantism I don’t agree with as part of this. How about people are afraid and know the political system gives more rights to the mentally Ill, looters, car jakers, and plain old criminals than the working taxpayers. Now you must endure the mentally ill and criminals in your face and accept it as part of life. Someone tries to help and it’s racism. BS, this and all of the other crime falls on politicians, race hustlers, and stupid white liberals. The guy should never of been on the street. So now he is loved and his family cares. Why? Money! Plain and simple. The race hustler’s only care if it helps them. Trash all!
If you listened to this, it all started with JFK changing the rules. That’s the problem with Democrats. They use their heart instead of their brain ( common sense). Unintended Consequence. I think the only way these people would get this is if they were forced to have these people live with them. The world would be a better place.
Jesus H. Roosevelt Christ. Being in close proximity - a closed subway car - to a lunatic who is threatening not only you but everybody around you - and then you do something about it - is not "vigilantism." It's a reasonable response to an unreasonable threat. Too bad (maybe) the perp died.
What a fine place we live in now! Our elected officials go after men who are doing what men DO - protecting those unable to defend themselves - and put them in jail, then the public pisses and moans about Frenchmen who stand by and watch a different lunatic stab women and children. What do you people WANT, anyway?
I never new J. H. had a second middle name! (J. H. C. was one of my father's more extreme epithets of indignation).
On the subject at hand, the bias evident in the use of the word "vigilante" is fascinating, because it seems like the author was trying to be as unbiased as possible - but failed. I don't listen to podcasts so I can't comment on that.
I don't either. Articles I can skim and read at depth if they look good; since I don't know which podcasts are worth my increasingly limited time, I just mark them all TLDL and move on.
re: trying to appear unbiased. Ah yes, the, "I'm the adult in the room" problem. "I try to see both sides." Sometimes there ain't no other side.
There is ALWAYS another side. Thinking there is not is what justified the covid wing-nuts. And justified government bureaucrats to use their official positions to target a presidential candidate they deemed a threat to their existence.
Agreed. Even if the other side ends up being wrong for whatever reason, it exists and you can try your best to see and understand it and talk about it as unbiased as possible. Especially if your job is talking about it.
That is one of the major points of Free Speech. Allowing it allows people to talk about their side of things. And if you truly care about Truth, being right and doing the best thing, you should be taking in as many sides as you can so you can compare and contrast and shape your view based on others.
Thinking there is one side is like saying the science is settled.
“the policies progressives favor as an alternative to incarcerating the mentally ill failed Jordan Neely”
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Really not a huge fan of the notion that we failed Jordan Neely like we let *him* down somehow.
He punched an old woman in the face and shattered her eye socket. She is the one who we let down. A decent society would have given that guy a cigarette and a blindfold ten years ago.
As the old Eagles song noted, "call some place paradise, kiss it goodbye."
The left perverts our language for a reason.
Just like they think nobody notices that indicting Trump for the same things Biden and Hilary Clinton did makes us nothing but a banana republic. Which, with Biden's immigration free for all, we actually are looking like.
Last night I wondered how long it would take for someone to shoehorn the trump indictment into today's comments regardless of what the morning article would be.
But like Penny, the Trump indictment highlights the nasty dualism of our "justice" system and the travesty that Democrats have made of it. If Penny had been black, he'd be a free man today. The two guys who helped him were, respectively, black and hispanic. No indictments of them. Not that they should be. All three are heroic in my estimation.
I thought Bruce's comments were relevant. It demonstrated the duality of our justice system. A conservative abuses the Secrets Act he goes to prison. If it were applied equally, Hillary would have gone to prison 6 years ago.
The left looooves the criminal and despises the victim as an irrelevant nuisance. You have to look no further than the leftwing DAs who fail to prosecute criminals. Think California and Chicago where business, think Walmart and big chain drug stores, are fleeing the state and the city because of unprosecuted crime
I've said this before leftwing morons hold vigils outside of prisons about to execute some murdering psychopath. How many of them ever console the victims of these brutal murders? Answer - NONE!
Also quit calling these fascists, liberals or progressives. They are neither liberals (liberals value free speech. Woke/PC shut down free speech.) nor are they progressive.
We are seeing people in academia and in businesses being fired or punished for using the term "biological female". That is fascism pure and simple. Call them what they really are, tyrants!
We have a new name for them, thanks to Kevin Durant?. Not Sees. As in there is none so blind as one who will not, or can Not See. Perfect in its description and elegant in its simplicity.
It can legitimately be read as saying the justice system is criminal. This may be the gestalt coming out; theoretically the criminal is the target but de facto justice fails and becomes criminal itself much too often to be reliable, and our collective unconscious recognise this.
Politicization ruins everything. It is not lost on me though that recent events should be bringing home to all what the least powerful among us have suffered for years.
But, they were abandoned. His family, first and foremost, but they might have been incapable. And then doctors and institutions failed and everything in between like a snowball rolling downhill. Mental illness is very difficult to control, if ever. For the sake of their rights to sovereignty (which is an oxymoron because they are incapable of managing themselves when ill), we abandoned them to their disease and to the streets where their illness grows into destitution and violence (mostly men by the way). Surely, we can create places this illness could be managed. The former mayor of NY (who shall not be named like Nosferatu) gave his wife millions of dollars to repair care of the mentally ill. Nothing happened. Well, not nothing; they made it horribly worse.
You were on a good roll there - abandoned by his family, abandoned by his mental.health care providers - then you stopped. The cruelest abandonment of all was by his civic leaders. Leaders who refused to face harsh realities and make hard decisions to compassionately care for those unable to care for themselves.
In the recent past, the term abandon is rather apt. But looking back, society threw them into "the mainstream" without considering their actual abilities to survive on their own and not represent a danger to others.
But by all accounts he was bat shite crazy. Progressive activists decimated the old system of involuntary commitment - institutionalization - for people like poor Mr. Neely. I cannot imagine the hell his life must have been. So yes progressive policies created the situation where people like him roam the streets. He is a victim. It is just one more illustration that progressives are either very ignorant or very malicious. Personally I find it hard to believe so many can Not See.
No, not my intent. They dont like not controlling every aspect of how I choose to spend my nickles and dimes and are working towards a digital currency which will finally give them that control .
But more and more it is only people with quadrillion of dimes that matter. Soros, Zuckerburg, Musk . . .The erosion of our individual vote is devastating I think.
"progressives" make martyrs out of the worst human beings. I won't be spending another second on this because people like Neely and Floyd don't deserve our time and attention.
Let's treat every single suicide, every single one of the hundred thousand drug overdoses per year, like each of those people matter just as much.
With progressives it's never about a meaningful vision of human life, it's about stories that validate their delusions of racism.
I don't disagree with you but if you decided not to listen to this episode it really will be your lost. It's one of the best Honestly podcasts I've listened to. Very fair, very balanced, covered every detail and nuance and I say this as a former NYer who know what it's like in the subway. What struck me most is the guests all talked like adults, civil and mature. Highly unusual in today's climate.
Thank you for this. I may actually listen to it now. The stupidity of the way it was introduced here immediately turned me off as I only have so much time to give and I'm not willing to waste it on nonsense...which is how this intro made it seem.
"When homelessness, mental illness, and vigilantism collide on the subway."
Oh please just piss off. So sick of pseudo-intellectuals pontificating about shit. Which of the "men" in this conversation have even had to jump in to save someone from one of these skells?
In fact, just consider how these navel gazing, useless nitwits have even perverted our language.
"Homeless?" No. In saner days, Neely was "a bum." A raving lunatic. And a violent psychopath.
And vigilantism. As Kings Full points out, a vigilante is one who pursues a miscreant. Dan Penny and the others pursued nobody. Due to the lazy, stupid and ineffective governance that pervades New York City, they were stuck in a filthy, subway - "the electric sewer" we all dread riding - and was forced to deal with an unhinged lunatic when all they wanted to do was get to work like normal people do.
Just the other day, a good friend was accosted in midtown just before dusk by another such lunatic, yelling racist invectives and threatening to stab him. Any one of us, who dares defend ourselves could instantly become another Dan Penny. Is this sane? Is this normal? Is this America? I despise what Democrats have done to our beautiful land. When will the spark finally ignite our simmering powder keg?
P. Michael Hutchins - you have stated with clarity what the problem is. Good people have had it with these “social experiments”. Get these threats off the street until they’re ready to be on the street. Good people will take matters into their own hands if the authorities don’t. They will also vote in leaders with more realistic attitudes about the disenfranchised.
"They will also vote in leaders with more realistic attitudes" no I don't think so. Just look at California and the northeastern states. They keep voting in the same irrational fascists year after year. Think Pocahontas, Bernie Sanders, Gavin Newsom and AOC.
I've still got the Dead Kennedys on vinyl singing about Jerry Brown and his suede denim secret police coming for your uncool niece on "California Über Alles".
I just saw a video of a very large man with a knife accosting a much smaller man who was ultimately stabbed to death. The much larger man had a long criminal history. I assume it was NYC but ICBW.
Rosen's book has little if anything to do with the Neely nonsense. Neely was a career and violent criminal turned loose to prey on hardworking, taxpaying New Yorkers by an incompetent, racist government. Rosen's friend, Laudor, had been given a cornucopia of mental health services by this family.
This is a giant example of the failure of government. Those who expect government or politics to solve complex problems like mentally ill people on the street are delusional themselves. The problem is complex but the answer isn’t - enforce the law. When people are threatened they will eventually fight back if the authorities don’t take care of the problem. Jordan Neely was definitely a big problem and I don’t care whether he was rich, poor, black, white, or green, he was a problem and all the delusional ideas of progressive “do gooders” weren’t helpful in the moment - someone had to do something. They should build monuments to Daniel Penny - he stepped up when someone needed to step up! It is indeed unfortunate that Jordan Neely lost his life but the real cause of his death preceded the intervention by Mr. Penny. Society needs to make sure the public is safe! Jordan Neely should NOT have been on the street - shame on the public safety and health systems in NYC.
I do appreciate the Free Press and its sincere efforts to be thoughtful and principled. And I will give the podcast a listen.
BUT.
In no way was Penny’s action “vigilantism”. It was an act of selfless courage to defend himself and the innocent bystanders on that train from imminent and potentially fatal harm.
When will thoughtful people realize that this breakdown in our civilization is happening precisely BECAUSE our government officials want it to?
Where were they when tragic/evil mr Neely was suffering through his dreadful childhood, watching his mother murdered? Moving from panhandling pest to dangerous thug? Being cycled through the “justice” system through over FORTY arrests?
Watching Sharpton blather on at his funeral was infuriating.
Nobody did nuthin, until they could destroy the life of the one man who tried to do the right thing and protect the innocent.
I hope the podcast makes this clear but the use of the word vigilantism makes me skeptical.
There is a legal defense fund set up for Daniel Penny. It has already raised over $2.8 million, mostly in donations of $20 or less. I think the majority of Americans are pretty fed up with the race baiting industry weaponizing the government against anyone who tries to bring order to the chaos.
I’m so glad to hear that! I was disgusted (but not surprised) to hear there was a civil suit against him as well. The man is a hero. There is zero evidence he had any knowledge —much less intention —for his restraint to end in Neelys death.
Nothing. It is reported other people on the train with Neely and Perry were calling 911 about Neely's behavior before Penny restrained him. I assume, and it is an assumption, that his behavior was extreme. I further assume the tapes of those 911 calls will be evidence at trial. As for the legal fund I knew that Rittenhouse' first lawyers laid claim to his legal defense funds when he switched lawyers. I thought that was outrageous and would not donate to a legal defense fund operated like that. I think the Penny donation site itself said for criminal and civil matters. If it was not there it was on the law firm's website that said funds were being raised for criminal and civil defense and to satisfy any civil liability.
You know how evil the progressive narrative is when they eulogize not the person Neely had become but the kid he was over 10 years ago. They don’t have posters with a current picture of him but photos taken over a decade ago. Even Eli feeds into this fake narrative in his opening sentence. Starting 0ff with: "a homeless man suffering from severe mental illness, was choked to death …" and not reporting the real situation of: "a homeless man suffering from severe mental illness [threatening to kill passengers] , was choked to death…"
Journalists lie by omission to frame the "truth" they want people to know.
Started with the Obama‘s son Trayvon Martin. Just a kid from Miami shipped up to Sanford from his moms to his pops to get him away from bad influences. Except he was the bad influence. But the Obama canonized him and the neighborhood watch guy was put through hell.
Why and how Jordan Neely "slipped through the cracks" is of interest and would probably be valuable in addressing additional similar situations which exist, but the most important question outstanding is how the NYC DA has reacted to Neely's death. Mr. Penny, at risk to himself, protected his community. For that he was charged. What the case of Jordan Neely demonstrates is the moral bankruptcy of New York's District Attorney's office. New York City and state were once renowned for the quality of their chief law enforcement officers; Louis Lefkowitz and Robert Morgenthau. Today we have clowns like Bragg.
I think what Eli Lake meant to say was, "A dangerous vagrant with a long history of violence was finally stopped dead in his tracks when he threatened to kill people on the subway."
Jordan Neely was a 42 time felon/criminal who hurt many people - I am glad he is in the afterlife and it is the government who has failed you - do not forget that. Daniel Penny did the job of a good citizen; his actions were not malicious, Neely's were.
A 22 time felon bashed the face of our son and his friend 1.5 years ago causing a years worth of jaw reconstruction. Why are these people on the streets?
Because YOU elect radical district attorney's who are pro-criminal. Pay attention and do some basic homework before you check a box.
Myself I was a victim on NY subway platform, attacked by similar character, who pushed me to the edge of that platform. I nearly escaped the tragedy!
Cop who showed up seconds after refused to do anything when I complained.
His reasoning was “if I take him out - he’ll comeback, if I write a report and take him to the station he’ll be let go almost immediately.”
System doesn’t know what to do with people who torment our cities because of the laws in place! There is total brake down of mental health system. There are no solutions nor resources. I wouldn’t even blame the police that much. They work with what they’ve got.
We are tax paying law-abiding citizens are not respected by our political establishment because we go alone with policies they put in place. Policies like “do not stop looters, do not stop vandals, you cannot protect yourself or your property”
We are scared to sound politically incorrect! Allowing our way of life to be destructed or even destroyed.
I’m retired now and can avoid subway like a plague.
I heard in the podcast that the police do have the right to take someone to the hospital instead of jail when that are a threat to themselves or others. There is also more than $10 billion dollars allocated to mental illness in NYC. The question is - why isn’t this working?
I do not know the specifics of NY law but I bet dollars to doughnuts that is just for a short time. Usually up to 72 hours then gotta let them go unless they consent to further treatment. Consent from usually severely mentally ill people is not likely to be given. Involuntary commitment was declared unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court and public mental health institutions were shuttered. Now the only way to get locked up involuntarily is to commit a felony and be found not guilty by reason of insanity.
That is...insane. :-) How the fuck can you give consent when you are away with the fairies? Every schizo I know, including myself, would agree that when you are off your trolley you can't consent .... cos you're off your fucking trolley! Jesus wept.
Exactly, Steven. Exactly. It is insane. No pun intended. In theory everyone in this country who cannot or will not care for themselves could be made a ward of a guardian. But someone has to step up and request a guardianship. There is of course some expense but it is not insurmountable. Some of the most frustrating criminal cases I handled were very mentally ill people who could not conform their behavior. Their mama's were all over me because their boy just needed help but at the time my county had no mental health court. I always explained the function of guardianship but every single one failed to act. Some admitted they did not want the responsibility. But guardianship can be full bore or limited. They can be very useful not just in terms of treatment and housing but to obtain access to other benefits. It is the way to access all those mental health benefits others have alluded to.
In the podcast it is discussed that he was ordered by the court. When he was in court his choice was to voluntarily commit to a 12 week program or go to jail, I believe. He left the program before fulfilling his obligation but there was no one finding out why or holding him accountable, apparently. We need to understand how the system fails.
IMO it fails by expecting the CJS, including law enforcement, to wear too many hats - enforcer and interpreter of law, social worker, mental health care provider, family counselor, .. - sometimes for thousands of people. The poop has rolled downhill and the CJS is at the bottom.of the hill. A person cannot be forced into treatment. Involuntary commitment is unconstitutional. This is yet another example of progressive "compassion" run amok.
I plan on listening later today, but one quick comment on the sub-title: "When homelessness, mental illness, and vigilantism collide on the subway."
I strongly disagree with the use of 'vigilantism' in this case. The root word, vigilante, is defined as follows:
vigilante
vĭj″ə-lăn′tē
noun
A person who is not a member of law enforcement but who pursues and punishes persons suspected of lawbreaking.
A member of a vigilance committee.
A person who considers it their own responsibility to uphold the law in their neighbourhood.
Not one of those apply in this case and it's use exposes a bias on the part of the author.
***************
ETA:
I've finally had the chance to listen to this episode and I found it extremely nuanced, honest and fair, much to my surprise based on the description in the title and the above article. I highly recommend everyone listen.
I stand by my OP, this was not the act of of a vigilante. A vigilante is someone on a horse, with a rope, actively looking for a victim...
This begs the question, why such an incendiary title?
Was it because of an inherent bias on the part of the host/author? If that's the case then how do you explain the nuanced conversation?
Was it to generate clicks and comments? If that's the case then, as others have said, I question the editorial path of TFP. You're no better than CNN in that case.
Try to keep up. The NEW word for a crazed, dangerous, violent career criminal with more than 40 arrests is "victim" and the NEW word for a brave veteran who risks his life to save others is "vigilante"
If the races were reversed, the insane aggressor was white and the choker was black, The choker would be haled a hero by the press and the PC/Woke wingnuts and no charges would be filed.
If the races were reversed we’d have never heard about it
You are so right. Even heard of Tony Timpa or Justine Damond? Didn't think so. Check the number of Google hits. Justine Damond gets 31,100 hits. George Floyd gets 17.3 million hits.
It’s bat sh.. crazy
Vigilante brings to mind an accused lawbreaker, a length of rope, a tree, and fifteen men on horseback administering crude justice.
What happened on that train was immediate defensive action taken against an aggressor who was a threat to lives.
One of these is not the same as the other.
Exactly. They want to evoke images of the triple K to make it a race thing.
Exactly! If it had been a black Marine who restrained and accidentally killed a white homeless man with 44 mostly violent arrests and who threatened multiple people, the Marine would be hailed as a hero and lauded on CNN, MSNBC, and The View.
https://euphoricrecall.substack.com/p/jordan-neely-wasnt-murdered
Since when is self defense vigilantism?
As you suggested earlier, whenever the races are properly aligned.
The people in charge don't want us defending ourselves. How are we supposed to become dependent if we do things for ourselves.
Well said!
Yip I haven’t started the podcast and I’m already feeling a sense of don’t go there. Daniel Penny should be awarded a medal and should have been invited to the WH to be given the medal.
People, please listen before commenting.
See my edit in the OP.
The podcast is way better than the title
Pravda rules all. There’s a downside to all of this: if you get in real trouble the odds someone who can help will help are plummeting. The cost is too high.
That's the plan. The playbook should seem familiar to anyone who knows anything about history. Pacify the populace by punishing anyone who intervenes. Make sure no one is armed. Then let the utopia begin in earnest. All that's in the way is a few million defenseless deplorables. So just get rid of them.
Now where have we seen this before?
lol
I have not listened yet but this jumped out to me as well! “ When the police won’t stop aggressors, vigilantes will fill the void.”
1. Good samaritans are not vigilantes.
2. There are not enough police. I imagine they want to stop aggressors but I can think of lots of reasons why they would tread lightly.
3. Criminals are not held accountable for their actions. Punishment must be great enough to deter crime and be consistently applied. Children learn at an early age how far to push the boundaries and what they can get away with. Adults, mental illness or not, do the same thing. If they cannot discern between right and wrong and are a threat to self or others, they should be institutionalized. The cost of the punishment must exceed the reward of the crime.
Way off base here. Mental illness causes you to lose your mind, which is why intervention, doctors, health workers, group homes and hospitals, are ecessary and should be mandatory.
The problem arises when mental health and criminality intersect. In modern times successful deployment of a mental health defense to a felony charge is about the only, if not the only, way to secure involuntary commitment to a mental hospital for a significant amount of time. But not every offender with mental illness can justify a successful insanity defense. IOW under the law you can be both mentally ill and a criminal. A good defense lawyer will use what you are saying - that mentally ill people are not responsible for their conduct - to mitigate punishment and thus reduce a criminal sentence. Which is why there is in essence a revolving door of mentally ill people through the criminal justice system.
The problem must be addressed before that occurs. And, there's a difference between the people we are describing, and a vast array of insanity pleas. People suffering from mental illness that is chronic is different from those wishing to cop a plea. Mental illness, not temporary mental health issues, is different. In mental illness, people may be aware of their actions but cannot put them in the context of reality the same as someone without the affliction. Also, most mentally ill patients only become violent when pushed to extremes. In the case of Jordan Neely, he suffered from extreme neglect by everyone, including all of us who look away because there is nothing we can do. The result is this tragic outcome between someone very far gone and someone intervening to help in an extreme situation. The situation was extreme. If you've ever witnessed mental health workers in a hospital trying to subdue an out of control patient, it would be clear what happened here. Jordan Neely shouldn't have been on the streets in that condition. It is an abject failure all the way around that now has to be meted out in our fast-becoming corrosive legal system.
First, while there is in the popular culture such a thing as "temporary insanity" meaning sudden passion which makes one lose their mind it is rare and even rarer for it to work before a jury. When it does it is always an example of jury nullification a/ka the victim got what he/she deserved. The use to "cop a plea" is even rarer because judges and DAs fear two things - appeals courts and bad press which will cause them to lose a re-election bid. Second, if mental illness should be addressed prior to the intersection of mental illness and criminal conduct that, by definition, cannot be the responsibility of the criminal justice system as the CJS requires that an act or omission of a duty occur to take action. Which is a good thing. If we literally criminalize thought we are done. If the current CJS, including law enforcement, is "corrosive" it is because it is unduly, and very unfairly IMO, burdened by legislators and executives, and the families and peers of mentally ill people who call 911 "just to get him/her some help" all of whom have dumped mental health crisis response on count on the CJS. The CJS exists to enforce existing laws. Cops are trained to secure compliance first and sort out the rest later. That actually works fairly well until faced with a mentally ill person. Or a person enraged because they are being told daily they are victims, oppressed, mistreated, but that is a different scenario. To use the CJS to handle the mentalky ill, criminal or not, is the rankest kicking the can down the road. Third, I agree that mentally ill people cannot control their behavior to varying degrees. Some can sometimes. Some not at all. Others can pretty well, usually if the illness is not extreme or if they are receiving adequate treatment. Mentally ill people should receive care. To do so would also address in part homelessness. To the extent they are failed by anyone I put that failure squarely on the shoulders of the mental health profession and establishment. In my experience both are exceedingly concerned about remuneration for services though which means poor people or people with resources who have alienated their loved ones fall through the cracks. Third, if the mentally ill are roaming the streets at will, when they pose a threat to others the others are justified in defending themselves as Mr. Penny did. Fourth, to get back to the subject of the article - vigilantes- I do think that given the destruction of the CJS, again including law enforcement, by progressives and their policies that the single greatest unifier of all of us, the Rule of Law, is being torn asunder. As that happens ordinary, law-abiding citizens see that the police are not able to assist when they are under threat so many will begin to assume that responsibility for themselves. Call that vigilantism if you will, I call it taking personal responsibility for your survival. This is evidenced all across the nation. On the subways in NYC. In the hoods on Chicago. In South Texas as a result of criminals flowing across the border including run of the mill criminals but also organized criminals as the cartels are divvying up the nation into their respective territories. It does not seem to be happening in Cali, Oregon or Washington because those folks do not seem to have the will the survive. And despite the comments on here about men stepping up in defense of others, which I admire, commend, and encourage, women are increasingly taking responsibility for their own safety. Gun sales to women are through the roof as is their attendance at gun safety courses and self-defense classes. Fifth, I have not witnessed mental health workers trying to restrain someone in crisis but I have seen several body cam videos of police officers responding to same and I have witnessed bailiffs in a courtroom do so.
. In the case of Jordan Neely, he suffered from extreme neglect by everyone, most ly HIS FAMILY.. problems must be addressed BY THE FAMILY
Schizophrenic here: Which part of 'institutionalised' don't you understand? If you want to help us out, stfu, eh?
Doesn’t matter
It’s MUCH CHEAPER to build housing and shelters then to provide mental health institutions that’s why politicians call it homelessness caused by poverty instead of mental health problems. Most of this ppl cannot sustain living on their own in housing they are being provided, cannot take care of their basic needs!
While in college my, son very idealistic young men, was trying to help this very sweet homeless person by getting him on the program which provided housing etc. This poor sole needed institutional treatment instead. He couldn’t live on his own, staying in shelters instead and in the end committed suicide!
This is the truth. Some people cannot live independently. Some need 24 hour supervision not to harm themselves or others. It’s all expensive but so is prison.
And, the other cost is whatever harm they caused to be in prison.
Not to mention how mentally ill people's illness can be made much worse in a prison environment, when incarceration and not treatment is the priority.
The solution isn’t housing. Tried that. Doesn’t work.
We need more prisons. Longer sentences. No parole. No bail.
I wonder if the bleeding-heart author of this pity piece had or had known, say, elderly parents or children on that train and they told him how fearful it was to have been there at that moment? Would his heart still bleed? Or, like NIMBY's, would it be different if it impacted the lives of him or his loved ones?
Please listen before commenting.
I agree. Vigilantism is a gross misrepresentation of what occurred. I'm quite sure the man who subdued him had no intention of him dying.
We made a huge error in judgment when as a country we closed all of our psychiatric facilities.
I am an RN and I distinctly remember doing a rotation in PSYCH in a LOCKED WARD AT BRONX STATE. The patients in that ward were truly psychotic including grandiose delusions, hallucinations, and included MURDERERS and CATATONICS. It was a very scary experience for me so I can appreciate the intense fear the people on that subway platform had.
THIS WAS NOT A RACIALLY MOTIVATED EVENT
I was an Air Force medic who went on to become a psych tech. I know exactly how those people felt being trapped in a metal tube with a madman.
PARDON ME KINGS--I'M A PAID SUBSCRIBER BUT FOR SOME REASON I'M ONLY ALLOWED TO SHARE IN "REPLY".
Any American who displays citizenship, personal agency and responsibility in his community must be villainized and threatened by the fascist left and (that turd in the punchbowl of American life) the MSM. The homeless/mental illness problem (and don't forget fentanyl) is an intentional creation of the same lie through its teeth globalism that allowed Wall Street to loot American savings and pension funds in 2008. . The conflation of crime with revolution by the "burn Baby burn" DNC to ensure that small business is destroyed and shit stained chaos reigns in American streets, parks and neighborhood is the logical extension and consequence of its six decade war on education and the middle class. The weaponization of poverty, crime and homelessness through the capture and distortion of the judicial system and (what you gonna do about it sissy) suspension of the rule of law as a means of inflicting terror on American's defines the DNC and the Davos/CCP agenda it serves.
Fear, loathing and assault cheerfully brought to you by the same people who gave you the Ku Klux Clan.
Another failure of progressive ideas, which they try to cover up with ridiculous claims of “compassion”.
They also have been trying to “normalize” this for many years, talking about “mental health issues- 1 in 6 people suffer from mental health issues!- and then conflating that with serious mental illness. It’s all the same, we should treat them just like your cousin who had a little bout with depression. How dare you suggest that these people should be forced into treatment against their will?
I have witnessed true psychosis and severe mental illness. It's in a league of its own. You are correct. Misguided progressives who have not experienced how dangerous it is.
Has very little to do with "progressive ideas." Ronald Reagan, for example, was pushing deinstitutionalization during his time as Governor of California. To not recognize what these places were like in the post WW2 era until deinstitutionalization is a mistake. Psychiatrists and psychologist are the ones you should blame and these folks were authoritarians, probably mostly conservative (but that doesn't really matter). Frontal lobotomies were ubiquitous. Electroconvulsive therapy were crudely used. Patients were strapped down and isolated for days and weeks. This is what folks like RD Laing (Scottish) and Frantz Fannon (French) were reacting too. True both these folks were marxists and then more Europeans philosophers like Foucault and other post modernist got ahold of mental illness and criminality, but that was after deinstitutionalization was already being pushed by politicians of all stripes. Along comes antipsychotic medications that do work, but require mentally ill people to adhere to a drug regime which pushed the idea forward even more. From the very beginning the psychiatrists and psychology has failed, whether conservative or progressive. Recognizing failed policies should be the first thing we do instead of pointing fingers. Finally, arresting someone for attempting to deal with a known violently mentally ill person is the last thing we should do and does nothing but poison the already crazed environment.
Well said, sir. Cook County Sheriff Tom Dart said several years ago that Cook County (Chicago) Jail was the nation's biggest insane asylum, and that should not be the case. He's right. We decided to "let the cops handle it" and that's been a disaster both for the ;police and the mentally ill. It really is time to rebuild our mental health structure, including involuntary confinement for those acting aggressively or criminally. Cops should not have to deal with it, and jails certainly aren't equipped.
The cause of de-institutionalization is, as you correctly point out, not a "progressive" mantra. Cons and progs were cheerleading equally to get rid of "Cuckoo's Nest" hellholes, and went way too far. They closed the mental health hospitals while promising an equal amount of "community-based care," and of course, never delivered, because the nation needed just one more B-1 bomber.
Somebody needs to help me with this. I don’t see a failure of progressive ideas. If progressives were getting their way, we would be throwing tons of money at the situation. But we are not. Instead, we have a homeless/mental illness problem. I’m not saying I have a solution, but the truth is that Republicans want to do even less and do not support government healthcare of any kind, physical or mental.
The way to solve the problem is to elect people who actually solve problems. I see very few in either party.
The book San Fransicko by Michael Shellenberger is a good source for the history of progressive policies that have led to the current disaster we see on the streets of San Francisco.
Cool. I’m going to read it. In honesty I’m trying to develop an opinion on exactly this problem. My knowledge is admittedly weak, but I have not seen real, implementable solutions from either side.
The author, Michael Shellenberger, was active in the progressive community endorsing the various “leave them be” policies. He came to change his views while seeing and investigating the harm done. He also quotes many people who work in the trenches who oppose the policies because they cause more harm than good.
Agree wholeheartedly. Vigilante is absolutely the wrong word. Author should have done better work in coming up with a more appropriate one before writing. Hard to come up with, though. Interventionist?
I even think “Killing” in the title is inflammatory and biased (sounds predatory and intentional). Just straightforwardly say “The Death of...” and then let people draw their own conclusions.
Moksha66, on the night this happened, Mr. Perry and 2 others (one Black) were attempting to restrain a deranged man, while constantly calling out for passengers to call the police.
When the police interviewed Mr. Perry and all others on the subway, they determined Mr. Perry had not committed a crime. He was allowed to go home.
Next day, with much fanfare and media attention, the WOKE DA has Mr. Perry arrested and charged with “murder” - now just waiting to determine if manslaughter or worse.
Additionally it has been reported that people were calling 911 before Mr. Penny and the other gentlemen acted. I further understand that conduct has to be really bad to resort to 911.
Oh wow, I did not know this. This is not how a healthy society functions. Where is common sense these days?
Two tiered justice system today in the USA.
Absolutely agree. Trial by media.
Exactly. I can't believe that the choice of was done without the realization of the statement they make.
Did you ask questions on Epoch Times in the Kash Patel Podcast?
Maybe the author was motivated by sensationalism and not the facts. It sounds PC/Woke to me. The first word that springs to a left wingnut's lips is racist and, in this case, racist vigilante. It's in their DNA.
The Free Press is part of the Unipress. Just as anything labeling itself Democratic usually has authoritarian Socialism, if not full blown totalitarian Marxism of some flavour, at its root (I twice typed rot there!). Same problem when it was "Common Sense". Anything labelled such is very often either uncommon or nonsense. "Common Sense" was originally I presume echoing Paine's pamphlet of 1776, which might be both. It certainly misconstrues the English constitution.
There was nonsense here from the gitgo. We could dimsiss that as growing pains; but the juvenile delinquency has carried over into adulthood.
Welcome to NYT: The Jerusalem Edition.
Ironically, when I read the Israeli press I find it more of an actual Fourth Estate holding Bibi and co's feet to the flames. Even if, as it seems to be, the TaNaKh is the 2nd century BC prophylatic fiction of priests, a considerable part of it is "dissident" slagging of Judaismos and God. In fact it bangs on in this fashion so much I honestlyly think that is its point; exactly one eighty to how it traditionally understood. The "Self Hating Jew" is actually baked into to the tradition and legitimised by it!
Huh?
It appears to me this is a classic case of self-defense. Which includes defense of others.
When 100% of the passengers stand behind the so-called "vigilante" it's going to be difficult to prove otherwise in court. Then again, a Manhattan jury...
In fact, I think the jury *should* be comprised of only passengers in that subway car. Can't get any fairer than that.
Somebody else in here has already commented that a passenger told Penny he was dying. And I expect the DA rmto charge the others who laid hands on Mr. Newly to be able to elicit testimony against Penny. I am glad there is video.
Sadly, there will be passengers who call him out. People who cowered or moved to the end of the train. Who, at the time were relived that someone did something, but later when the MSM told them what to think, change what actually happened in their minds and it becomes their new truth.
Sadly, I think this poor guy is in trouble.
One problem with substack in general and Free Press in particular is that there is an absence of editors. A good editor would have replaced vigilantism because it does not take the self defense aspect of this event into account.
This was done to Rittenhouse too.
I’m OK with the format. We, the subscribers, are the editors - even if it’s after the fact.
There are too many words. If I have to wade through a bunch of fuzzy writing I will not continue to read this.
It's a transcript
I’m not talking about so many words in a transcript. I’m talking about the internet, and Substack, and the free press. I subscribed to tfp because Bari is such a good writer, reasonable, and an excellent observer. It’s a bonus that her wife is so funny. Not all those who write for tfp are as gifted as they are. I think some may benefit from an editor.
The word you're looking for is "hero"
Yeah, Bari Weiss is so full of herself with her sanctimony. She obviously needs an editor ... oh, wait, she IS the editor.
I jumped at reading that word - vigilantism - in the subhead. It is really insane usage here: a train car full of citizens going about their days a madman enters and begins to threaten folks, a former Marine steps forward to protect people. And Weiss calls it "vigilantism"?
Really, Bari Weiss, you are just a girl from Pittsburgh, not a public intellectual. You need to take your attitude down a notch. Or two.
I get it now. She changed from Common Sense to Free Press. Common Sense was too constrained to impart the liberal bias ingrained from so many years in her circles. Free Press fits the all the news fit to print narrative.
Either Bari agreed with vigilantism as the correct description, or knew using it would spark so many clicks; maybe both actually.
Nailed it.
Bari is not the author. The author is Eli Lake. Bari led the podcast, which is very good btw. Perhaps comment again after you've listened.
The Editor is the person responsible, the person you sue; not the individual journalist. FFS, even Harry Winsor gets that.
🤑 Harry, not you.
Hi Rosemarie MacAllister. First, I feel a kinship to your last name, which is my wife’s maiden surname.
Secondly, I just completed the podcast, and you are correct- it’s well done. Especially liked Rafael Mangual‘s thoughts. Plus that Kat called out the stupidity of Cortez’s and Tlaib’s race bating idioticy. That those two fools have been re-elected compounds the divisiveness gripping our politics.
The podcast, which was not led by Bari, was opposite to the written intro, which helps both our comments. Mine, that whoever approved Eli’s written intro - I assume Bari - decided that divisive language would help drive traffic; and yours, listen to the podcast and then make your comments. Had the written intro mimicked the podcast, I’d bet the initial comments from so many would have been very different.
I do a lot of picking and choosing these days about what news and commentary I give time to. If your suggestion here is correct, it backfired with me because I don’t waste my time on stupid takes and the headline made it sound like this would be exactly that. I agree that Bari--or someone--needs to do a better job with language. Clickbait—if that's what this title is—should not be the goal of a serious news outlet. Providing all the relevant facts impartially is good journalism.
That said, I’m glad the podcast did not live down to its intro title. I came directly to the comment section to try to find out that info, so thanks Rosemarie and Michael for that.
"Really, Bari Weiss, you are just a girl from Pittsburgh, not a public intellectual. You need to take your attitude down a notch. Or two."
Or, you could find a blog more to your taste, rather than take sanctimonious potshots at the proprietress. This is her space, so she gets to run what she wants.
And her subscribers get to opine. Which is what he did.
He has every right to opine. I have every right to opine that calling her belittling names is juvenile and if he thinks so little of her he might be happier reading other blogs.
You do indeed. The opening is what it is all about here.😉
Yes indeed!
You have to see it from her perspective. Bari is a life long and devoted Leftist, she just isn't radical enough for the modern neo-Marxist Left and was thus excommunicated.
As she remains to the left of center though, a pity propaganda manifesto such as this is something I would still expect her to embrace.
Which is not to suggest in any way this is quality journalism. It's pure reactionary crap which belongs in the pages of Jacobin or Mother Jones. Or the NYT.
I agree!
I listened to the podcast. The repeated use of vigilante and its derivative forms was wholly inappropriate. The rampant bias conveyed by its use was palpable.
Note, finding the repeated use of vigilante wrong (in the headline no less) rests not on a left or right wing analysis but on a "news ought to be as neutral and as accurate as possible" viewpoint. In this instance, Honestly and The Free Press utterly failed in this regard.
It is propaganda. It was used with Kyle Rittenhouse too.
I was just about to say the exact same thing. To me, someone who steps up to protect people is not a vigilante...he or she is a protector...a selfless person...maybe a hero.
Will listen to the discussion, but that term leaped out at me, too.
Totally agree, Kings Full. Mr. Perry, with help from 2 others (one was Black) stepped in to restrain a deranged man - why skin color matters here is more Left Woke BS! The Left searching for another George Floyd to further divide this Country.
WHY Mr. Perry’s PAST military service listed as his identifier, rather than his CURRENT college student??
I also want to add, it isn’t the police who failed to do their duty! It is the Liberal Politicians who control the Blue Cities (remember their rally cries “Defund Police”) who have failed Mr. Neely and the citizens!!
How many times had Neely been arrested, but Liberal DAs & Judges let him go back out into the street/subway to harass and terrorize the public!
Some honesty here would be appreciated, and necessary if a solution can truly be determined.
A solution is the last thing the Democrats want!
Agree.
I almost want to think that the wrong-headed use of 'vigilante' was because the author has internalized the progressive attitude against any form of self-defense. I note these kinds of things but am not surprised.
The alternative explanation - that it was purposefully chosen to spark outrage and clicks/replies here - makes me concerned for the editorial path of this site.
Well said.
Agree 100%.
That's what immediately jumped out at me too. I don't listen to these pieces, but just from that it was clear that this is just another biased leftist propaganda piece pretending to be even-handed.
I think the author was using this term only in the sense that many in the media have labeled the former marine a vigilante.
Much of what passes for journalism these days is just regurgitation of tweets or other inconsequential opinion. But that is a problem and those who would do better should. Words matter.
Perhaps. But then "vigilante" should have been in scare quotes to show it wasn't the author/editors' take.
I saw vigilantism in the title and scanned the description to see what speaker listed would justify the use of such an inflammatory and inaccurate term.. Believe me, I won’t waste any time listening.
Don't swallow any of the sand. An ostrich might have preceded you.
I stopped at the title.. It's not worth my time.
Vigilante is someone who actively tracks criminals
Try not to react. This is a complex issue made more complex by making assumptions. To cut through, can we agree that existing government policy is flawed and some politicians are politicizing this flaw for their own personal gain instead of doing something about it. This case should not be decided by the courts - it should be addressed by change in the system so something like this does not happen again. I don’t care what you call it - vigilantism or heroism - it should not have had to happen and it did.
Agreed. It is, to warp GW Bush's statement, the legislatures, stupid.
How about the entire woke liberal ideas are a failure. Vigilantism I don’t agree with as part of this. How about people are afraid and know the political system gives more rights to the mentally Ill, looters, car jakers, and plain old criminals than the working taxpayers. Now you must endure the mentally ill and criminals in your face and accept it as part of life. Someone tries to help and it’s racism. BS, this and all of the other crime falls on politicians, race hustlers, and stupid white liberals. The guy should never of been on the street. So now he is loved and his family cares. Why? Money! Plain and simple. The race hustler’s only care if it helps them. Trash all!
Right, suddenly his family loved him to pieces when there's a check to be cashed.
Beyond belief that they would not or could not care for him but society must compensate them for a loss--of what?
"How about the entire woke liberal ideas are a failure. "
Amen
Clap Clap Clap
Terry, so true. Liberals got this country into this mess.
But...But...But...
They meant well.
Well said! His family loved him to death. Pun intended.
If you listened to this, it all started with JFK changing the rules. That’s the problem with Democrats. They use their heart instead of their brain ( common sense). Unintended Consequence. I think the only way these people would get this is if they were forced to have these people live with them. The world would be a better place.
Jesus H. Roosevelt Christ. Being in close proximity - a closed subway car - to a lunatic who is threatening not only you but everybody around you - and then you do something about it - is not "vigilantism." It's a reasonable response to an unreasonable threat. Too bad (maybe) the perp died.
What a fine place we live in now! Our elected officials go after men who are doing what men DO - protecting those unable to defend themselves - and put them in jail, then the public pisses and moans about Frenchmen who stand by and watch a different lunatic stab women and children. What do you people WANT, anyway?
I never new J. H. had a second middle name! (J. H. C. was one of my father's more extreme epithets of indignation).
On the subject at hand, the bias evident in the use of the word "vigilante" is fascinating, because it seems like the author was trying to be as unbiased as possible - but failed. I don't listen to podcasts so I can't comment on that.
I don't either. Articles I can skim and read at depth if they look good; since I don't know which podcasts are worth my increasingly limited time, I just mark them all TLDL and move on.
re: trying to appear unbiased. Ah yes, the, "I'm the adult in the room" problem. "I try to see both sides." Sometimes there ain't no other side.
There is ALWAYS another side. Thinking there is not is what justified the covid wing-nuts. And justified government bureaucrats to use their official positions to target a presidential candidate they deemed a threat to their existence.
Agreed. Even if the other side ends up being wrong for whatever reason, it exists and you can try your best to see and understand it and talk about it as unbiased as possible. Especially if your job is talking about it.
That is one of the major points of Free Speech. Allowing it allows people to talk about their side of things. And if you truly care about Truth, being right and doing the best thing, you should be taking in as many sides as you can so you can compare and contrast and shape your view based on others.
Thinking there is one side is like saying the science is settled.
Totally agree, Lynn!
At 800+ words/minute, I can read through a transcript before they hit the quarter post in the podcast.
They say JFK could do 2000. Sure got me beat.
Agreed. Plus all the ums and ahs and laughing and niceties. I don’t do audio format news.
Jesus Christ's real name was Bernie until Mary stubbed her toe :)
Lol!
“the policies progressives favor as an alternative to incarcerating the mentally ill failed Jordan Neely”
—————————————————
Really not a huge fan of the notion that we failed Jordan Neely like we let *him* down somehow.
He punched an old woman in the face and shattered her eye socket. She is the one who we let down. A decent society would have given that guy a cigarette and a blindfold ten years ago.
Notice it's called the "criminal justice system", not the "VICTIM justice system"
As the old Eagles song noted, "call some place paradise, kiss it goodbye."
The left perverts our language for a reason.
Just like they think nobody notices that indicting Trump for the same things Biden and Hilary Clinton did makes us nothing but a banana republic. Which, with Biden's immigration free for all, we actually are looking like.
Looking like? We are one! Despots in power, a few billionaires who are the ruling class and money going to the friends of those in power.
Last night I wondered how long it would take for someone to shoehorn the trump indictment into today's comments regardless of what the morning article would be.
You've exceeded my expectations.
Well, thanks, I think.
But like Penny, the Trump indictment highlights the nasty dualism of our "justice" system and the travesty that Democrats have made of it. If Penny had been black, he'd be a free man today. The two guys who helped him were, respectively, black and hispanic. No indictments of them. Not that they should be. All three are heroic in my estimation.
I thought Bruce's comments were relevant. It demonstrated the duality of our justice system. A conservative abuses the Secrets Act he goes to prison. If it were applied equally, Hillary would have gone to prison 6 years ago.
Point of order! Julian Assange.
That you spent last night considering that is a tell.
Yes, so rigid ideologically that it is always our side is always right and the other side is blamed for everything wrong/evil with the world.
But that is true on both "sides". Which is why we remain so divided.
I never suggested otherwise............meanwhile the majority are left to gasp at the state of politics.
The left looooves the criminal and despises the victim as an irrelevant nuisance. You have to look no further than the leftwing DAs who fail to prosecute criminals. Think California and Chicago where business, think Walmart and big chain drug stores, are fleeing the state and the city because of unprosecuted crime
I've said this before leftwing morons hold vigils outside of prisons about to execute some murdering psychopath. How many of them ever console the victims of these brutal murders? Answer - NONE!
Also quit calling these fascists, liberals or progressives. They are neither liberals (liberals value free speech. Woke/PC shut down free speech.) nor are they progressive.
We are seeing people in academia and in businesses being fired or punished for using the term "biological female". That is fascism pure and simple. Call them what they really are, tyrants!
We have a new name for them, thanks to Kevin Durant?. Not Sees. As in there is none so blind as one who will not, or can Not See. Perfect in its description and elegant in its simplicity.
Funny, I thought Not See was a clever play on Nazi. It seems both are applicable
I think that it is a play on words. But it is very apt so I prefer the plain meaning.
It rather scares me, Lynne, and worries me about the future of a Lockean liberal society.
It can legitimately be read as saying the justice system is criminal. This may be the gestalt coming out; theoretically the criminal is the target but de facto justice fails and becomes criminal itself much too often to be reliable, and our collective unconscious recognise this.
Politicization ruins everything. It is not lost on me though that recent events should be bringing home to all what the least powerful among us have suffered for years.
But, they were abandoned. His family, first and foremost, but they might have been incapable. And then doctors and institutions failed and everything in between like a snowball rolling downhill. Mental illness is very difficult to control, if ever. For the sake of their rights to sovereignty (which is an oxymoron because they are incapable of managing themselves when ill), we abandoned them to their disease and to the streets where their illness grows into destitution and violence (mostly men by the way). Surely, we can create places this illness could be managed. The former mayor of NY (who shall not be named like Nosferatu) gave his wife millions of dollars to repair care of the mentally ill. Nothing happened. Well, not nothing; they made it horribly worse.
You were on a good roll there - abandoned by his family, abandoned by his mental.health care providers - then you stopped. The cruelest abandonment of all was by his civic leaders. Leaders who refused to face harsh realities and make hard decisions to compassionately care for those unable to care for themselves.
I didn't stop. Addressed that in another thread.
In the recent past, the term abandon is rather apt. But looking back, society threw them into "the mainstream" without considering their actual abilities to survive on their own and not represent a danger to others.
Isn't that encapsulated by Rosemarie's last three sentences? The mayor is THE civic leader, no?
The mayor is an executive. City mayors, unlike recent POTUSs, are pretty weak. Legislative bodies make the laws.
But by all accounts he was bat shite crazy. Progressive activists decimated the old system of involuntary commitment - institutionalization - for people like poor Mr. Neely. I cannot imagine the hell his life must have been. So yes progressive policies created the situation where people like him roam the streets. He is a victim. It is just one more illustration that progressives are either very ignorant or very malicious. Personally I find it hard to believe so many can Not See.
“To progressives, Neely, who was black, is another victim of systemic racism”
——————————————————-
My favorite thing about Democrat claims of systemic racism is that they completely control all of the systems.
As long as people have a few dimes to freely spend on their own they don't control all the systems. They're getting there though... Give them time.
Probably not your intent but your comment reminds me of a frequently used bit of deceptive left-wing pedantry.
“Ackshually, XYZ isn’t communism because a guy with a mustache hasn’t marched troops into the factories yet.”
Well, no. I do not have to wait for the perfected utopian end-state, which will never occur, before I am allowed to describe things accurately.
They control all of the systems.
No, not my intent. They dont like not controlling every aspect of how I choose to spend my nickles and dimes and are working towards a digital currency which will finally give them that control .
But more and more it is only people with quadrillion of dimes that matter. Soros, Zuckerburg, Musk . . .The erosion of our individual vote is devastating I think.
"progressives" make martyrs out of the worst human beings. I won't be spending another second on this because people like Neely and Floyd don't deserve our time and attention.
Let's treat every single suicide, every single one of the hundred thousand drug overdoses per year, like each of those people matter just as much.
With progressives it's never about a meaningful vision of human life, it's about stories that validate their delusions of racism.
Well said, it is about the exception that allows them to ignore the reality and pretend they are noble.
I don't disagree with you but if you decided not to listen to this episode it really will be your lost. It's one of the best Honestly podcasts I've listened to. Very fair, very balanced, covered every detail and nuance and I say this as a former NYer who know what it's like in the subway. What struck me most is the guests all talked like adults, civil and mature. Highly unusual in today's climate.
Thank you for this. I may actually listen to it now. The stupidity of the way it was introduced here immediately turned me off as I only have so much time to give and I'm not willing to waste it on nonsense...which is how this intro made it seem.
"When homelessness, mental illness, and vigilantism collide on the subway."
Oh please just piss off. So sick of pseudo-intellectuals pontificating about shit. Which of the "men" in this conversation have even had to jump in to save someone from one of these skells?
In fact, just consider how these navel gazing, useless nitwits have even perverted our language.
"Homeless?" No. In saner days, Neely was "a bum." A raving lunatic. And a violent psychopath.
And vigilantism. As Kings Full points out, a vigilante is one who pursues a miscreant. Dan Penny and the others pursued nobody. Due to the lazy, stupid and ineffective governance that pervades New York City, they were stuck in a filthy, subway - "the electric sewer" we all dread riding - and was forced to deal with an unhinged lunatic when all they wanted to do was get to work like normal people do.
Just the other day, a good friend was accosted in midtown just before dusk by another such lunatic, yelling racist invectives and threatening to stab him. Any one of us, who dares defend ourselves could instantly become another Dan Penny. Is this sane? Is this normal? Is this America? I despise what Democrats have done to our beautiful land. When will the spark finally ignite our simmering powder keg?
P. Michael Hutchins - you have stated with clarity what the problem is. Good people have had it with these “social experiments”. Get these threats off the street until they’re ready to be on the street. Good people will take matters into their own hands if the authorities don’t. They will also vote in leaders with more realistic attitudes about the disenfranchised.
"They will also vote in leaders with more realistic attitudes" no I don't think so. Just look at California and the northeastern states. They keep voting in the same irrational fascists year after year. Think Pocahontas, Bernie Sanders, Gavin Newsom and AOC.
That's because they got it ingrained in their heads that all Republicans are EVIL!!!!!!!!!
I've still got the Dead Kennedys on vinyl singing about Jerry Brown and his suede denim secret police coming for your uncool niece on "California Über Alles".
History is rhyming a lot at the moment.
When?
My usual rant applies here:
WE ALREADY HAVE TERM LIMITS, PEOPLE!!! THEY’RE CALLED ELECTIONS!!!
This has been a public service announcement - carry on…
Elections? Or parodies of them?
That is my fear.
Nailed it
I just saw a video of a very large man with a knife accosting a much smaller man who was ultimately stabbed to death. The much larger man had a long criminal history. I assume it was NYC but ICBW.
For the record, "homeless" is a bad word now, never mind "bum". They're now "people experiencing houselessness".
Who knows, maybe they're join the van life people and start making TikTok videos documenting their "houselessness".
Read Rosen’s book and you might not be so dismissive of him at least.
Who is Rosen, what is his book, and who is being dismissed? I can't work out whose comment this is replying too. Tah.
It's a 500+ page book; much easier to just rant.............
Rosen's book has little if anything to do with the Neely nonsense. Neely was a career and violent criminal turned loose to prey on hardworking, taxpaying New Yorkers by an incompetent, racist government. Rosen's friend, Laudor, had been given a cornucopia of mental health services by this family.
Bruce for the win, as usual.
Good point.
This is a giant example of the failure of government. Those who expect government or politics to solve complex problems like mentally ill people on the street are delusional themselves. The problem is complex but the answer isn’t - enforce the law. When people are threatened they will eventually fight back if the authorities don’t take care of the problem. Jordan Neely was definitely a big problem and I don’t care whether he was rich, poor, black, white, or green, he was a problem and all the delusional ideas of progressive “do gooders” weren’t helpful in the moment - someone had to do something. They should build monuments to Daniel Penny - he stepped up when someone needed to step up! It is indeed unfortunate that Jordan Neely lost his life but the real cause of his death preceded the intervention by Mr. Penny. Society needs to make sure the public is safe! Jordan Neely should NOT have been on the street - shame on the public safety and health systems in NYC.
This is a giant example of the failure of government.
That is because government is an example of failure...
Protecting others in a tin can, underground, with no way out from a violent lunatic is not vigilantism but heroism.
I do appreciate the Free Press and its sincere efforts to be thoughtful and principled. And I will give the podcast a listen.
BUT.
In no way was Penny’s action “vigilantism”. It was an act of selfless courage to defend himself and the innocent bystanders on that train from imminent and potentially fatal harm.
When will thoughtful people realize that this breakdown in our civilization is happening precisely BECAUSE our government officials want it to?
Where were they when tragic/evil mr Neely was suffering through his dreadful childhood, watching his mother murdered? Moving from panhandling pest to dangerous thug? Being cycled through the “justice” system through over FORTY arrests?
Watching Sharpton blather on at his funeral was infuriating.
Nobody did nuthin, until they could destroy the life of the one man who tried to do the right thing and protect the innocent.
I hope the podcast makes this clear but the use of the word vigilantism makes me skeptical.
There is a legal defense fund set up for Daniel Penny. It has already raised over $2.8 million, mostly in donations of $20 or less. I think the majority of Americans are pretty fed up with the race baiting industry weaponizing the government against anyone who tries to bring order to the chaos.
https://www.givesendgo.com/daniel_penny
Best thing I’ve read in these comments! Thank you!
The lawyers have pledged that it will be used to satisfy any civil judgment against the heroic Mr. Penny too.
I’m so glad to hear that! I was disgusted (but not surprised) to hear there was a civil suit against him as well. The man is a hero. There is zero evidence he had any knowledge —much less intention —for his restraint to end in Neelys death.
I was dubious about the crowd funding for the lawyer's after what Rittenhouse's lawyers did. So I checked it out first.
I hadn’t heard anything about that- what did they do wrong? And what did you find about the Penny fund?
Nothing. It is reported other people on the train with Neely and Perry were calling 911 about Neely's behavior before Penny restrained him. I assume, and it is an assumption, that his behavior was extreme. I further assume the tapes of those 911 calls will be evidence at trial. As for the legal fund I knew that Rittenhouse' first lawyers laid claim to his legal defense funds when he switched lawyers. I thought that was outrageous and would not donate to a legal defense fund operated like that. I think the Penny donation site itself said for criminal and civil matters. If it was not there it was on the law firm's website that said funds were being raised for criminal and civil defense and to satisfy any civil liability.
I'm nervous about that, too.
Thank you. I did know about the fund. I donated day one.
So glad to know about this. Thank you! I just donated. May true justice prevail.
Thanks for the link.
You know how evil the progressive narrative is when they eulogize not the person Neely had become but the kid he was over 10 years ago. They don’t have posters with a current picture of him but photos taken over a decade ago. Even Eli feeds into this fake narrative in his opening sentence. Starting 0ff with: "a homeless man suffering from severe mental illness, was choked to death …" and not reporting the real situation of: "a homeless man suffering from severe mental illness [threatening to kill passengers] , was choked to death…"
Journalists lie by omission to frame the "truth" they want people to know.
Also, to me, "was choked to death" implies intention to choke -- that is, kill. This was clearly not the case.
The wording should be "died as a result of being severely restrained."
Exactly
Ding ding ding. Best sentence of the day: "Journalists lie by omission to frame the "truth" they want people to know."
Started with the Obama‘s son Trayvon Martin. Just a kid from Miami shipped up to Sanford from his moms to his pops to get him away from bad influences. Except he was the bad influence. But the Obama canonized him and the neighborhood watch guy was put through hell.
Correction, Steven N., “ A homeless man suffering mental illness, was RESTRAINED by a young man, which resulted in his ACCIDENTAL death”
“Journalists lie by omission to frame the “truth” they want people to know.” Brilliant and spot on.
Why and how Jordan Neely "slipped through the cracks" is of interest and would probably be valuable in addressing additional similar situations which exist, but the most important question outstanding is how the NYC DA has reacted to Neely's death. Mr. Penny, at risk to himself, protected his community. For that he was charged. What the case of Jordan Neely demonstrates is the moral bankruptcy of New York's District Attorney's office. New York City and state were once renowned for the quality of their chief law enforcement officers; Louis Lefkowitz and Robert Morgenthau. Today we have clowns like Bragg.
I think what Eli Lake meant to say was, "A dangerous vagrant with a long history of violence was finally stopped dead in his tracks when he threatened to kill people on the subway."
Yes, but I doubt that's what Eli meant to say.
Jordan Neely was a 42 time felon/criminal who hurt many people - I am glad he is in the afterlife and it is the government who has failed you - do not forget that. Daniel Penny did the job of a good citizen; his actions were not malicious, Neely's were.
A 22 time felon bashed the face of our son and his friend 1.5 years ago causing a years worth of jaw reconstruction. Why are these people on the streets?
Because YOU elect radical district attorney's who are pro-criminal. Pay attention and do some basic homework before you check a box.
Exactly! You beat me to it. This was a case of self defense, plain and simple. The headline is prejudicial and shows the author’s bias.
Myself I was a victim on NY subway platform, attacked by similar character, who pushed me to the edge of that platform. I nearly escaped the tragedy!
Cop who showed up seconds after refused to do anything when I complained.
His reasoning was “if I take him out - he’ll comeback, if I write a report and take him to the station he’ll be let go almost immediately.”
System doesn’t know what to do with people who torment our cities because of the laws in place! There is total brake down of mental health system. There are no solutions nor resources. I wouldn’t even blame the police that much. They work with what they’ve got.
We are tax paying law-abiding citizens are not respected by our political establishment because we go alone with policies they put in place. Policies like “do not stop looters, do not stop vandals, you cannot protect yourself or your property”
We are scared to sound politically incorrect! Allowing our way of life to be destructed or even destroyed.
I’m retired now and can avoid subway like a plague.
I'm sorry that happened to you. You deserved better.
Maybe its time to put a little fear in the hearts of the people responsible for this insanity?
“Elections have consequences.”
-B S Obama
I heard in the podcast that the police do have the right to take someone to the hospital instead of jail when that are a threat to themselves or others. There is also more than $10 billion dollars allocated to mental illness in NYC. The question is - why isn’t this working?
I do not know the specifics of NY law but I bet dollars to doughnuts that is just for a short time. Usually up to 72 hours then gotta let them go unless they consent to further treatment. Consent from usually severely mentally ill people is not likely to be given. Involuntary commitment was declared unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court and public mental health institutions were shuttered. Now the only way to get locked up involuntarily is to commit a felony and be found not guilty by reason of insanity.
That is...insane. :-) How the fuck can you give consent when you are away with the fairies? Every schizo I know, including myself, would agree that when you are off your trolley you can't consent .... cos you're off your fucking trolley! Jesus wept.
Exactly, Steven. Exactly. It is insane. No pun intended. In theory everyone in this country who cannot or will not care for themselves could be made a ward of a guardian. But someone has to step up and request a guardianship. There is of course some expense but it is not insurmountable. Some of the most frustrating criminal cases I handled were very mentally ill people who could not conform their behavior. Their mama's were all over me because their boy just needed help but at the time my county had no mental health court. I always explained the function of guardianship but every single one failed to act. Some admitted they did not want the responsibility. But guardianship can be full bore or limited. They can be very useful not just in terms of treatment and housing but to obtain access to other benefits. It is the way to access all those mental health benefits others have alluded to.
In the podcast it is discussed that he was ordered by the court. When he was in court his choice was to voluntarily commit to a 12 week program or go to jail, I believe. He left the program before fulfilling his obligation but there was no one finding out why or holding him accountable, apparently. We need to understand how the system fails.
IMO it fails by expecting the CJS, including law enforcement, to wear too many hats - enforcer and interpreter of law, social worker, mental health care provider, family counselor, .. - sometimes for thousands of people. The poop has rolled downhill and the CJS is at the bottom.of the hill. A person cannot be forced into treatment. Involuntary commitment is unconstitutional. This is yet another example of progressive "compassion" run amok.