In a normal time, our leaders would tell us what it was all for. We don’t live in that time. So it's left to us to remember why we served in Afghanistan.
The real betrayal was perpetrated by generals like McMaster that continually asked for six more months. We just need six more months. 20 years. We were there for twenty years standing up an army that was never every a fighting force. This fact was known at the highest levels.
Our failure was thinking we could have democratized a country that didn’t care about democracy. And then the military and our civilian leadership lies to Americans- just need a little more time.
This is t about Trump surrendering. It’s about hubris and military incompetence. After 20 years, 15 to 16 of which were dedicated to training this Afghan army, they completely collapse in 11 days. That’s the story. Why? Just read WaPos 2019 Afghan Papers. That’s why.
I was there in 05 and 12. At no time in either of those deployments was there a capable Afghan army. We all knew it. McMaster knew it. It’s disgusting that anyone in leadership would say that we failed because we didn’t stay longer. What we’re witnessing now was and is inevitable. We could be there for 100 years and this would still happen after we left.
We don’t owe them anything. I had soldiers die there while we trained them, funded them, built schools and fostered democratic systems. They failed themselves. Proof - if they have a shit they’d be fighting the Taliban, not running. Pretty clear example of their level of caring for their country. And again and again there’s the shouts from people hanging off planes, “don’t go!!” Or “take me with you!” That’s not what people say when their country is collapsing, without a fight.
20 years.
To my fellow vets. This has nothing to do with your valor. We did our job. Our leaders failed us by using us to do the impossible. But we did our jobs and we did them well. Their failure isn’t ours. Our lesson is the same lesson from Vietnam. America should not be running around the world, wasting money and sacrificing good men and women on impossible efforts - democratization.
There’s no doubt the invasion of Afghanistan was warranted. No doubt. But once the Taliban had a taste and were routed, we should have left. It should have remained a punitive “raid.” How it came off the rails like it did is something for the ages but I sense it’s very similar to the absurd issues that kept us in Vietnam - prestige. The myth of prestige.
Thank you so much for this comment, Al. I professionally work with veterans, many OEF combat vets. You're a voice for many of them. I wish Bari would give you more of a voice here.
What vets tell me is, Americans totally forgot about them the last 20 years until now, they're acting as if they care. So many of the pieces Bari posted fit that hypocrisy. Combat vets, Marines, have told me stories that go to the true details of Afghanistan, like one Marine who told me that when talking to an Afghan police chief who brought in his child sex slave, he knew we shouldn't be in that war. Americans do not understand that culture. Many of the writers Bari posts present a narrative of liberating a country. So false. The Afghan army wasn't stupid. They weren't going to die for that corrupt government. For Bari's presenters to justify staying in that war is hugely disrespectful to veterans like you who witnessed the truth on the ground.
Strictly as a civilian, Al's comments seem to me to be just 100% good sense.
From my prior comment, "A hard lesson learned after Viet Nam is don't vilify the rank and file." I'm appreciative of those who decide to serve, but there's often so much fawning it can seem excessive and performative. Which leads me to wonder about "What vets tell me is, Americans totally forgot about them the last 20 years until now, they're acting as if they care." Do you perceive that vets expect something more from us citizens, from the American population in general?
Thanks for adding your own good sense to this conversation.
To answer your question, veterans are very diverse, so no generalization is possible. The healthiest attitude I hear is from veterans who don't have expectations from American civilians, but are clear about their own reasons and effects from serving. I recommend to them to be wary of stupid questions about what it was like, that they should speak only if the civilian shows respect and a reason to ask.
I once heard a VA staff member recommend saying "thank you for your service" to have the veteran think you're on their side and to like you. That's why I never say it. It's cheap and self-satisfying.
I believe we all have responsibility about an ongoing war, that's why I'm wary of so many of the people Bari presented. What were they doing throughout this war to achieve the aims they now are advocating? Women and others weren't protected by solid institutions being built. Why didn't they figure out the complicated relationship the Taliban had with the population and try to work with them and work with others, including China and Pakistan for peace in the region?
Thanks. It sounds like you perform a very meaningful service with (I presume) expertise combined with empathy and common sense.
Like all public discussion and events (another example being COVID policy), the one thing we can count on in the US is a huge amount of second-guessing and diametrically opposed opinions about best policy. I'm really glad we will expend no more lives (US and other) or treasure in Afghanistan. I have no idea how it might have been done better. All the know-it-alls who do should have run for President.
I appreciate Your views as You seem to represent a lotta soldiers, Ron. But I'm not sure how old You are. Mebbe You don't remember how DESPISED the Nam Vets were, because of My Lai. I appreciate that soldiers don't feel supported, and I'm not trying to say one war is better than another, as I didn't serve. But I just don't see OEF soldiers being DESPISED, at least.
As far as working for peace with China and Pakistan? And the Taliban? I think You're letting Your heart speak. That's okay. But realistically? Are You claiming this as a piece of "good sense?"
For ten years I've been in the camp that nation-building was a mistake. I'm not clear on it now. From this more than what Al and You have to say about it. You have a view that seems narrow, is all.
You ask the question what were CIVILIANS doing while the war was going on. And You've DETERMINED that civilians are hypocrites and at the same time should NEVER talk to a soldier except on their terms? I don't think I lack any respect for soldiers, but I think they put their pants on one leg-at-a-time, too.
What it APPEARS You're saying, Ron, is that You've got it all figured out, and the rest of us are just dad-burned FOOLS.
That's one view. I don't see the utility in it, mainly.
I recalled talking to a waiter at Bob Evans, and he said so-and-so was the BEST boss, and it was too bad the head of the store wasn't that way. I agreed with him, but asked if the head was the one who dealt with the corporates.
The reason that came to mind is that in ANY hierarchy, the rank-and-file ALWAYS knows better what the boss should be thinking and doing. SOME point to that, indeed. But, in general?
Gimme a break. Like YOU have any answers? Leave back then. Dunno McMaster from dung. Simply OBVIOUS to someone not so stuck up and blind to see. What happened this week would-a happened then. RIght?
I actually do have answers. I would have never placed conventional forces in Afghanistan. We would have left at the end of 2004 when it was known, not by the world but by the military, that Bin Laden wasn’t in country, and we could drive around Helmand without being shot at. We would have left then when Gen Olson states the Taliban was no longer a threat in Afghanistan. We would have left and there’s have been no significant chaos at the airfield because we hadn’t bred in dependencies. I’d have left because I love read history and I know what transpired in Vietnam at the policy levels. We’d have left.
But since we didn’t, because we needed to democratize them, it was ALWAYS going to end this way. 20 years, 50 years, 100 years = a scene wherein military aged afghanis are falling off airplanes as we depart. Worse the longer we stayed. You can’t democratize a country that doesn’t care. They didn’t care. We cared more then they did. Until that changed, at some utterly unknown period in the future, this is OBVIOUSLY the end result. Time only makes it worse for all of us.
You don’t need to personally know McMaster or any of the other failed leaders. They’re not unknowns. We’re not talking about the faceless. These guys are on the record, now and in the past, with their positions on this topic. That’s OBVIOUS as well.
What are your answers? I see you Write Insightful Experiences. Let’s hear it.
You may prefer more direct arguments, Al. Look this over, if You dare:
" We would have left then when Gen Olson states the Taliban was no longer a threat in Afghanistan."
Easy to say in HINDSIGHT. But would You say Taliban is no longer a threat? That U.S. somehow PROVOKED the Taliban to BECOME a threat when they wouldn'a been otherwise by staying. No, sorry.
They WERE a threat. They ARE a threat. Question remains how BIG a threat they'll be in future. You're argument when to leave leaves an OBVIOUS flaw in the logic, AFAIK.
There were many people (I was one) who said, AT THE TIME, that we should have gone after OBL full-force, blowing things up until we got him, then immediately left. And not gone into Iraq at all.
I understand Your views but, although the Taliban ended up not being directly involved, the U.S. couldn't stand by and just take it on the chin. IMHO, it HAD to be responded to the way we did.
Given, on Iraq. I consider the battle won but the game lost because faulty intelligence on WMD. That's just me. Day ends early.
Going after OBL full force until he's dead is NOT "standing by and taking it on the chin". It sends a pretty clear message, IMO.
Then we say to the Taliban, "don't let this happen again". And then leave! Becaue if we don't leave, we get 20 years and a trillion dollars of failure.
How are they a threat? How are they a direct threat to America? First of all the Taliban only gave safe haven to Al Q. And Al Q used Saudi nationals to take down the towers. It wasn’t them. We were the problem. We let them in the country legally. There was no invasion. The towers were struck because our systems weren’t designed to detect them. Now they are. The Taliban is not a threat to America. That’s just ridiculous.
If You'd CHECKED inciteful Experiences, You'd see how much time I have.
My answer? Truth? It's done. McMaster may be right. Did YOu LISTEN to Ms. Weiss's interview? Get ANYTHING from it? Answer no to either, then head to BACK of building.
We may end up having to go BACK their in future. Depends how well TERRORISTS deploy against us. HOPE they don't. Know? Nup.
I gave my answers below. Afghanistan and humanitarian adventures will play out. I look FORWARD more than backward. Problems are US in the U.S. Americans being deluded. Not just those at top. Turtles ALL the Way down. Like Ms. Bari alluded to, but I disagree that it starts with the top, is all.
“It’s done” is your answer. Definitely “inciteful.” Of course McMaster and all the other war hounds would say that we may need to go back. Of course they would. Why would we need to go back? Will the Taliban suddenly build a fleet and a capable army, sail to American and invade? Or will we continue to pretend that we can kill an idea with invasions of third world dumps? Is it possible that a radical Islamist will shoot people somewhere? Yes. Yes indeed. Did that happen while we were pretending to create a democracy in Afghanistan? Yes. There’s zero strategize reason to go back. There was zero strategic reason to stay. That’s the whole point. We never needed to stay.
Again, the Taliban didn’t comprise a single member of any terror against America. They were Saudi. We have the Taliban an ultimatum- give up Bin Laden or we’re coming. That’s the extent of the Talibans involvement in 9/11 - Bin Laden lives there. Do I think the Taliban will “host” other islamists? Maybe. Do it think that equates to an existential threat to America? No. Of course not. 9/11 didn’t destroy America either. Fool.
I'm an Army veteran and served in varying capacities from 1974 (the end of the Vietnam War until 1990 (Desert Storm). I was physician for the last 10 years of active service and cared for many Vietnam veterans. Many of those veterans knew that Vietnam was a screwed up war and knew as soon as we left the NVA would take over the country. Veterans felt saddness for what they saw as a waste of life, both of their comrades and Vietnamese they knew and worked with. The Vietnam War was less than 50 years ago. Our current president was an adult and saw all of this. I do not understand how he could have overseen what has transpired in Afghanistan and not make statements that help all the current veterans work through their pain about what has happened! He even had a son that served there, so he dishonors his own blood! Instead, what we see is the typical political blame game and once again ignoring the very people who protect you. I am angry! Someone needs to address our current and veteran soldiers and try to ease their pain (it may be an impossible task). I don't hold out hope that it will happen and most of our veterans will suffer in silence as they did 47 years ago. If you know a veteran, don't just thank them for their service, ask them how they are doing and let them know you truly care about someone who would risk their life for YOU!!! I write this with tears in my eyes for I have seen their suffering!
I listen to McMaster on the Goodfellows Conversations. I do not find him a convincing intellect when measured by the standards set by his colleagues there, John Cochrane and Niall Ferguson. I have been surprised by the memes he repeats as real arguments. As these conversations move on in any number of episodes, McMaster shrinks and the others just move ahead without him. I will listen to your conversation because it's you. Thanks for all you are doing to push back at illiberalism.
Their morons. Politically skilled but militarily incompetent. All they know is how to work the military political system. They fool themselves into believe that because they attained these ranks they must also be smart and militarily capable. The media also falls for this. But the modern day military general is a joke, a master of catch phrases and pandering to the needs to their seniors, completely unimaginative and incredibly risk averse. That’s our military leader. It’s a profile for the last person you want to face China - real threat.
Really? McChrystal? Politically adroit. Brilliant enough to believe they can democratize Afghanistan? Obviously you have to be highly intelligent to become a “McChrystal” or any of those others. But militarily capable? Two different things.
We have plenty of evidence, to include their own actions in the very scenario you just mentioned (none of these hero’s resigned) for reasonable people to conclude that they did not recommend leaving Afghanistan. The WaPo article is excoriating. It was an open secret they were failing and they hid it from the public by smothering it in obfuscation and contracts. I also saw it. Everyone that was there, working, saw it. We know Obama wanted to leave and was convinced that it wasn’t the right time. We know what happened when Trump tried to leave. I know from being on the ground that now Afghan army ever existed as a fighting force. We know that none of the individuals you mentioned stood tall and said, “I can’t back immoral and militarily unfeasible plans” and resigned. That never happened. And we’re not talking about leaving the army in disgrace because the threat was akin to Hitlers March across Europe. It was Afghanistan. Nothing would have altered their careers to resign if the civilian leadership was pushing these generals to go against their determined recommendations to leave. But we know that’s not what happened. You know. You’re just suffering from hero worship. I sense you don’t even believe what you’re saying. You want them to be what you imagine them to be - brilliant therefore moral and ethical and militarily capable. But they aren’t. Ask them if they ever recommended that pullout was the only militarily wise COA. Ask em. Ask them
If it was anything other than a bottom of the COA. You know what the answer is. They didn’t recommend pullout. That would mean the military failed - by proxy that means they failed. But they also won’t answer that question because it also means that if they did, and civilian leadership said “nope, go and do what you’re telling me is not possible wherein more Americans will die…” and they didn’t resign… well. We also know they didn’t resign.
You want to believe there’s a such thing as a Warrior Philosopher. I get it. It’s alluring. And these men have such amazing heavy stares when they look you. Makes one quiver at being in their presence.
Turns out their just boobs. Incompetent boobs. You know it deep in the corners of your mind.
They’re worse than incompetent. They’re liars. They know what they’re doing by deceiving the American people, and worse—the men and women they lead into battle to be injured or die for no good reason. These assholes should all be fired and stripped of their retirements and so disgraced that they can’t ever show their fat, lying faces in public again—especially not in DC to try to work as overpaid “consultants.” Frankly, they’re traitors. They deserve much worse than heaps of shame and public scorn.
You need to read the Afghanistan Papers published by Wapo along with their article, in which you can see the raw information about what the generals actually thought at the time without journalists' filter. I suspect you will change your tune if you do. Richard Hanania has an excellent, very long Twitter thread from 2019 summarizing some of the highlights as well.
Interesting that Gen. McMasters tries to lay the blame for this disaster at the feet of Mike Pompey. The Biden administration has had seven months to address the Taliban negotiations but neglected to do so. Lot’s of blame to go around in this morass. Share it rationally.
It is interesting to see a serviceman advocate for what is called the "forever war" position, that we should be doing some sort of "peacekeeping" in Afghanistan for which he and his friends would sign up "over and over again". I think it's safe to say this is a minority viewpoint particularly among servicemen. If we are going to use troops to defend the rights of women and girls in other countries there are lots of other countries we should pick first. Of course such a mission is absurd on its face. Afghanistan was nothing more than a 20 year money laundering operation that put $600bn of taxpayer money into the hands of our military-industrial complex. All the "women and girls" stuff was trotted out every few years to keep the grift going. Perhaps our young serviceman is not yet cynical enough.
That's just it. We didn't. Wouldn'a had if we'd left any earlier. Had a GOOD chance if we'd had the will. So, yeah. I agree to that extent. It wasn't winnable. Not that it COULDN'T be won, militarily.
There was a lot of corruption and dishonesty among politicians and Generals on both sides. This should have been a six month operation. Get in, kill as many bad guys as possible, get out. Somehow this morphed into a ludicrous nation building, culture changing operation that was doomed to fail
“I broke down. I went into the shower and sobbed.” That says everything. How many of us have done that too? When the sorrow is almost too much to bear and we can’t find any sense of it all. Heartbreaking.
You did a great job, Bari, in this interview. McMaster did not offer you much heavy thinking. He basically shifted his feet when you asked the questions that simply lie on the surface of our rage at this inanity. When it came to the military's culpability in this chaos he would giggle and not refute you. That's the best he had. The canard that Trump psychologically clouded Milley's judgment so that he could not see how bad things were was beyond insane. And his assertion that bringing Afghanis to America was the best way to defeat the Taliban was illusionary. Is this man really military? His answers were not direct, clear, and avoided anything approaching taking responsibility for atmospheres he helped create. A most disappointing moment. But you still managed to express the soul that is in our questions, outrage at incompetence, blame shifting, and intellectual laziness. Thank you for staying close to the American soul.
"When will there be justice in Athens? There will be justice in Athens when those who are not injured are as outraged as those who are." ~ Thucydides
The casualties we require are for those in command, field officers and leading politicians, who put our dead in harm's way--and escaped themselves. It is they who deserve loss of benefits, banishment from decent company, and everlasting shame. Gen. McMaster among them.
McMaster defends the US flying the gay pride flag in Afghanistan because this is really who the Afghani’s were in the 1970s. We weren’t taunting them but being true to them. What???? Bari thankfully expressed skepticism.
McMaster’s solution? Full on immigration of Afghani’s to America so they can save Afghanistan from here. This is not a serious thinker. He is what is wrong with the military. Bari kept trying to put him on the hook. He stumbled and stuttered. He simply would not admit our military leaders are not serious people, even as McMaster is not.
Bari - Hoping that you'll consider publishing a response to Rafia Zakaria's truly retrograde, bigoted commentary which is getting quite a bit of coverage on NPR and in other circles. Its really dangerous and needs urgent attention. Thanks for your consideration.
The real betrayal was perpetrated by generals like McMaster that continually asked for six more months. We just need six more months. 20 years. We were there for twenty years standing up an army that was never every a fighting force. This fact was known at the highest levels.
Our failure was thinking we could have democratized a country that didn’t care about democracy. And then the military and our civilian leadership lies to Americans- just need a little more time.
This is t about Trump surrendering. It’s about hubris and military incompetence. After 20 years, 15 to 16 of which were dedicated to training this Afghan army, they completely collapse in 11 days. That’s the story. Why? Just read WaPos 2019 Afghan Papers. That’s why.
I was there in 05 and 12. At no time in either of those deployments was there a capable Afghan army. We all knew it. McMaster knew it. It’s disgusting that anyone in leadership would say that we failed because we didn’t stay longer. What we’re witnessing now was and is inevitable. We could be there for 100 years and this would still happen after we left.
We don’t owe them anything. I had soldiers die there while we trained them, funded them, built schools and fostered democratic systems. They failed themselves. Proof - if they have a shit they’d be fighting the Taliban, not running. Pretty clear example of their level of caring for their country. And again and again there’s the shouts from people hanging off planes, “don’t go!!” Or “take me with you!” That’s not what people say when their country is collapsing, without a fight.
20 years.
To my fellow vets. This has nothing to do with your valor. We did our job. Our leaders failed us by using us to do the impossible. But we did our jobs and we did them well. Their failure isn’t ours. Our lesson is the same lesson from Vietnam. America should not be running around the world, wasting money and sacrificing good men and women on impossible efforts - democratization.
There’s no doubt the invasion of Afghanistan was warranted. No doubt. But once the Taliban had a taste and were routed, we should have left. It should have remained a punitive “raid.” How it came off the rails like it did is something for the ages but I sense it’s very similar to the absurd issues that kept us in Vietnam - prestige. The myth of prestige.
Lions led by donkeys.
Thank you so much for this comment, Al. I professionally work with veterans, many OEF combat vets. You're a voice for many of them. I wish Bari would give you more of a voice here.
What vets tell me is, Americans totally forgot about them the last 20 years until now, they're acting as if they care. So many of the pieces Bari posted fit that hypocrisy. Combat vets, Marines, have told me stories that go to the true details of Afghanistan, like one Marine who told me that when talking to an Afghan police chief who brought in his child sex slave, he knew we shouldn't be in that war. Americans do not understand that culture. Many of the writers Bari posts present a narrative of liberating a country. So false. The Afghan army wasn't stupid. They weren't going to die for that corrupt government. For Bari's presenters to justify staying in that war is hugely disrespectful to veterans like you who witnessed the truth on the ground.
Strictly as a civilian, Al's comments seem to me to be just 100% good sense.
From my prior comment, "A hard lesson learned after Viet Nam is don't vilify the rank and file." I'm appreciative of those who decide to serve, but there's often so much fawning it can seem excessive and performative. Which leads me to wonder about "What vets tell me is, Americans totally forgot about them the last 20 years until now, they're acting as if they care." Do you perceive that vets expect something more from us citizens, from the American population in general?
Thanks for adding your own good sense to this conversation.
To answer your question, veterans are very diverse, so no generalization is possible. The healthiest attitude I hear is from veterans who don't have expectations from American civilians, but are clear about their own reasons and effects from serving. I recommend to them to be wary of stupid questions about what it was like, that they should speak only if the civilian shows respect and a reason to ask.
I once heard a VA staff member recommend saying "thank you for your service" to have the veteran think you're on their side and to like you. That's why I never say it. It's cheap and self-satisfying.
I believe we all have responsibility about an ongoing war, that's why I'm wary of so many of the people Bari presented. What were they doing throughout this war to achieve the aims they now are advocating? Women and others weren't protected by solid institutions being built. Why didn't they figure out the complicated relationship the Taliban had with the population and try to work with them and work with others, including China and Pakistan for peace in the region?
Thanks. It sounds like you perform a very meaningful service with (I presume) expertise combined with empathy and common sense.
Like all public discussion and events (another example being COVID policy), the one thing we can count on in the US is a huge amount of second-guessing and diametrically opposed opinions about best policy. I'm really glad we will expend no more lives (US and other) or treasure in Afghanistan. I have no idea how it might have been done better. All the know-it-alls who do should have run for President.
I appreciate Your views as You seem to represent a lotta soldiers, Ron. But I'm not sure how old You are. Mebbe You don't remember how DESPISED the Nam Vets were, because of My Lai. I appreciate that soldiers don't feel supported, and I'm not trying to say one war is better than another, as I didn't serve. But I just don't see OEF soldiers being DESPISED, at least.
As far as working for peace with China and Pakistan? And the Taliban? I think You're letting Your heart speak. That's okay. But realistically? Are You claiming this as a piece of "good sense?"
For ten years I've been in the camp that nation-building was a mistake. I'm not clear on it now. From this more than what Al and You have to say about it. You have a view that seems narrow, is all.
https://www.sarahchayes.org/post/the-ides-of-august
You ask the question what were CIVILIANS doing while the war was going on. And You've DETERMINED that civilians are hypocrites and at the same time should NEVER talk to a soldier except on their terms? I don't think I lack any respect for soldiers, but I think they put their pants on one leg-at-a-time, too.
What it APPEARS You're saying, Ron, is that You've got it all figured out, and the rest of us are just dad-burned FOOLS.
That's one view. I don't see the utility in it, mainly.
I recalled talking to a waiter at Bob Evans, and he said so-and-so was the BEST boss, and it was too bad the head of the store wasn't that way. I agreed with him, but asked if the head was the one who dealt with the corporates.
The reason that came to mind is that in ANY hierarchy, the rank-and-file ALWAYS knows better what the boss should be thinking and doing. SOME point to that, indeed. But, in general?
Ah well... Day's done.
"To my fellow vets. This has nothing to do with your valor. We did our job. "
I'm not a vet, but this absolutely rings true.
A hard lesson learned after Viet Nam is don't vilify the rank and file. And to vets, don't sell yourselves short.
Gimme a break. Like YOU have any answers? Leave back then. Dunno McMaster from dung. Simply OBVIOUS to someone not so stuck up and blind to see. What happened this week would-a happened then. RIght?
I actually do have answers. I would have never placed conventional forces in Afghanistan. We would have left at the end of 2004 when it was known, not by the world but by the military, that Bin Laden wasn’t in country, and we could drive around Helmand without being shot at. We would have left then when Gen Olson states the Taliban was no longer a threat in Afghanistan. We would have left and there’s have been no significant chaos at the airfield because we hadn’t bred in dependencies. I’d have left because I love read history and I know what transpired in Vietnam at the policy levels. We’d have left.
But since we didn’t, because we needed to democratize them, it was ALWAYS going to end this way. 20 years, 50 years, 100 years = a scene wherein military aged afghanis are falling off airplanes as we depart. Worse the longer we stayed. You can’t democratize a country that doesn’t care. They didn’t care. We cared more then they did. Until that changed, at some utterly unknown period in the future, this is OBVIOUSLY the end result. Time only makes it worse for all of us.
You don’t need to personally know McMaster or any of the other failed leaders. They’re not unknowns. We’re not talking about the faceless. These guys are on the record, now and in the past, with their positions on this topic. That’s OBVIOUS as well.
What are your answers? I see you Write Insightful Experiences. Let’s hear it.
You may prefer more direct arguments, Al. Look this over, if You dare:
" We would have left then when Gen Olson states the Taliban was no longer a threat in Afghanistan."
Easy to say in HINDSIGHT. But would You say Taliban is no longer a threat? That U.S. somehow PROVOKED the Taliban to BECOME a threat when they wouldn'a been otherwise by staying. No, sorry.
They WERE a threat. They ARE a threat. Question remains how BIG a threat they'll be in future. You're argument when to leave leaves an OBVIOUS flaw in the logic, AFAIK.
There were many people (I was one) who said, AT THE TIME, that we should have gone after OBL full-force, blowing things up until we got him, then immediately left. And not gone into Iraq at all.
I understand Your views but, although the Taliban ended up not being directly involved, the U.S. couldn't stand by and just take it on the chin. IMHO, it HAD to be responded to the way we did.
Given, on Iraq. I consider the battle won but the game lost because faulty intelligence on WMD. That's just me. Day ends early.
Going after OBL full force until he's dead is NOT "standing by and taking it on the chin". It sends a pretty clear message, IMO.
Then we say to the Taliban, "don't let this happen again". And then leave! Becaue if we don't leave, we get 20 years and a trillion dollars of failure.
How are they a threat? How are they a direct threat to America? First of all the Taliban only gave safe haven to Al Q. And Al Q used Saudi nationals to take down the towers. It wasn’t them. We were the problem. We let them in the country legally. There was no invasion. The towers were struck because our systems weren’t designed to detect them. Now they are. The Taliban is not a threat to America. That’s just ridiculous.
See, i say You COULD be right. I just wouldn't put more'n a dollar on it, if it were me.
Well you actually put a trillion dollars on it. And how did that work out?
If You'd CHECKED inciteful Experiences, You'd see how much time I have.
My answer? Truth? It's done. McMaster may be right. Did YOu LISTEN to Ms. Weiss's interview? Get ANYTHING from it? Answer no to either, then head to BACK of building.
We may end up having to go BACK their in future. Depends how well TERRORISTS deploy against us. HOPE they don't. Know? Nup.
I gave my answers below. Afghanistan and humanitarian adventures will play out. I look FORWARD more than backward. Problems are US in the U.S. Americans being deluded. Not just those at top. Turtles ALL the Way down. Like Ms. Bari alluded to, but I disagree that it starts with the top, is all.
“It’s done” is your answer. Definitely “inciteful.” Of course McMaster and all the other war hounds would say that we may need to go back. Of course they would. Why would we need to go back? Will the Taliban suddenly build a fleet and a capable army, sail to American and invade? Or will we continue to pretend that we can kill an idea with invasions of third world dumps? Is it possible that a radical Islamist will shoot people somewhere? Yes. Yes indeed. Did that happen while we were pretending to create a democracy in Afghanistan? Yes. There’s zero strategize reason to go back. There was zero strategic reason to stay. That’s the whole point. We never needed to stay.
ICBW. I haven't seen any planes landing on buildings. No, not likely to see that attack vector again. A different one coming outta Afghanistan?
What? You PRAYING it doesn't happen or what?
Again, the Taliban didn’t comprise a single member of any terror against America. They were Saudi. We have the Taliban an ultimatum- give up Bin Laden or we’re coming. That’s the extent of the Talibans involvement in 9/11 - Bin Laden lives there. Do I think the Taliban will “host” other islamists? Maybe. Do it think that equates to an existential threat to America? No. Of course not. 9/11 didn’t destroy America either. Fool.
I'm an Army veteran and served in varying capacities from 1974 (the end of the Vietnam War until 1990 (Desert Storm). I was physician for the last 10 years of active service and cared for many Vietnam veterans. Many of those veterans knew that Vietnam was a screwed up war and knew as soon as we left the NVA would take over the country. Veterans felt saddness for what they saw as a waste of life, both of their comrades and Vietnamese they knew and worked with. The Vietnam War was less than 50 years ago. Our current president was an adult and saw all of this. I do not understand how he could have overseen what has transpired in Afghanistan and not make statements that help all the current veterans work through their pain about what has happened! He even had a son that served there, so he dishonors his own blood! Instead, what we see is the typical political blame game and once again ignoring the very people who protect you. I am angry! Someone needs to address our current and veteran soldiers and try to ease their pain (it may be an impossible task). I don't hold out hope that it will happen and most of our veterans will suffer in silence as they did 47 years ago. If you know a veteran, don't just thank them for their service, ask them how they are doing and let them know you truly care about someone who would risk their life for YOU!!! I write this with tears in my eyes for I have seen their suffering!
Thank You SIR! You have boundless heart. TYTY.
I listen to McMaster on the Goodfellows Conversations. I do not find him a convincing intellect when measured by the standards set by his colleagues there, John Cochrane and Niall Ferguson. I have been surprised by the memes he repeats as real arguments. As these conversations move on in any number of episodes, McMaster shrinks and the others just move ahead without him. I will listen to your conversation because it's you. Thanks for all you are doing to push back at illiberalism.
Agree 100%. I’m finding it hard to listen to any of these generals anymore.
Their morons. Politically skilled but militarily incompetent. All they know is how to work the military political system. They fool themselves into believe that because they attained these ranks they must also be smart and militarily capable. The media also falls for this. But the modern day military general is a joke, a master of catch phrases and pandering to the needs to their seniors, completely unimaginative and incredibly risk averse. That’s our military leader. It’s a profile for the last person you want to face China - real threat.
So true.
Really? McChrystal? Politically adroit. Brilliant enough to believe they can democratize Afghanistan? Obviously you have to be highly intelligent to become a “McChrystal” or any of those others. But militarily capable? Two different things.
We have plenty of evidence, to include their own actions in the very scenario you just mentioned (none of these hero’s resigned) for reasonable people to conclude that they did not recommend leaving Afghanistan. The WaPo article is excoriating. It was an open secret they were failing and they hid it from the public by smothering it in obfuscation and contracts. I also saw it. Everyone that was there, working, saw it. We know Obama wanted to leave and was convinced that it wasn’t the right time. We know what happened when Trump tried to leave. I know from being on the ground that now Afghan army ever existed as a fighting force. We know that none of the individuals you mentioned stood tall and said, “I can’t back immoral and militarily unfeasible plans” and resigned. That never happened. And we’re not talking about leaving the army in disgrace because the threat was akin to Hitlers March across Europe. It was Afghanistan. Nothing would have altered their careers to resign if the civilian leadership was pushing these generals to go against their determined recommendations to leave. But we know that’s not what happened. You know. You’re just suffering from hero worship. I sense you don’t even believe what you’re saying. You want them to be what you imagine them to be - brilliant therefore moral and ethical and militarily capable. But they aren’t. Ask them if they ever recommended that pullout was the only militarily wise COA. Ask em. Ask them
If it was anything other than a bottom of the COA. You know what the answer is. They didn’t recommend pullout. That would mean the military failed - by proxy that means they failed. But they also won’t answer that question because it also means that if they did, and civilian leadership said “nope, go and do what you’re telling me is not possible wherein more Americans will die…” and they didn’t resign… well. We also know they didn’t resign.
You want to believe there’s a such thing as a Warrior Philosopher. I get it. It’s alluring. And these men have such amazing heavy stares when they look you. Makes one quiver at being in their presence.
Turns out their just boobs. Incompetent boobs. You know it deep in the corners of your mind.
They’re worse than incompetent. They’re liars. They know what they’re doing by deceiving the American people, and worse—the men and women they lead into battle to be injured or die for no good reason. These assholes should all be fired and stripped of their retirements and so disgraced that they can’t ever show their fat, lying faces in public again—especially not in DC to try to work as overpaid “consultants.” Frankly, they’re traitors. They deserve much worse than heaps of shame and public scorn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Best_and_the_Brightest
You need to read the Afghanistan Papers published by Wapo along with their article, in which you can see the raw information about what the generals actually thought at the time without journalists' filter. I suspect you will change your tune if you do. Richard Hanania has an excellent, very long Twitter thread from 2019 summarizing some of the highlights as well.
Hear, hear.
McMaster is just like Joey Eggplant. Blaming others. What was McMasters role as a general eh? What advice did he give.
One thinks that the military leadership is always pure as the driven snow. Well really they are uber political and as slimy as any other politician.
He advised, and continues to advise, staying just long enough to get that Afghan army ready. It’s always, “just a little bit more time…”
Interesting that Gen. McMasters tries to lay the blame for this disaster at the feet of Mike Pompey. The Biden administration has had seven months to address the Taliban negotiations but neglected to do so. Lot’s of blame to go around in this morass. Share it rationally.
I found that interesting too. McMaster is a toad
And speaking of sharing the blame, who did Pompeo report to and take orders from?
It is interesting to see a serviceman advocate for what is called the "forever war" position, that we should be doing some sort of "peacekeeping" in Afghanistan for which he and his friends would sign up "over and over again". I think it's safe to say this is a minority viewpoint particularly among servicemen. If we are going to use troops to defend the rights of women and girls in other countries there are lots of other countries we should pick first. Of course such a mission is absurd on its face. Afghanistan was nothing more than a 20 year money laundering operation that put $600bn of taxpayer money into the hands of our military-industrial complex. All the "women and girls" stuff was trotted out every few years to keep the grift going. Perhaps our young serviceman is not yet cynical enough.
You just WILL NOT admit You're wrong. I did. Was to DENY safe haven for TERRORISTS.
How did we do that?
That's just it. We didn't. Wouldn'a had if we'd left any earlier. Had a GOOD chance if we'd had the will. So, yeah. I agree to that extent. It wasn't winnable. Not that it COULDN'T be won, militarily.
, Americans just a big ball of wimp, AFAIK.
"Will" is useless without a "way". What was the "way" that should have been employed to "win"?
And after we "won", then what? We run the country as an occupying foreign power forever?
After we won? South Korea-style would-a worked. Know for CERTAIN? No.
Thanks for sharing the voice of a real soldier. I thank him for his service, and for the sacrifices of his buddies in uniform.
McMaster and all the generals, however, should SHUT THE FUCK UP.
Liars. All liars.
Yup
There was a lot of corruption and dishonesty among politicians and Generals on both sides. This should have been a six month operation. Get in, kill as many bad guys as possible, get out. Somehow this morphed into a ludicrous nation building, culture changing operation that was doomed to fail
“I broke down. I went into the shower and sobbed.” That says everything. How many of us have done that too? When the sorrow is almost too much to bear and we can’t find any sense of it all. Heartbreaking.
Thank you for defending freedom Jordan. We are proud of you and proud of the work you have done.
You did a great job, Bari, in this interview. McMaster did not offer you much heavy thinking. He basically shifted his feet when you asked the questions that simply lie on the surface of our rage at this inanity. When it came to the military's culpability in this chaos he would giggle and not refute you. That's the best he had. The canard that Trump psychologically clouded Milley's judgment so that he could not see how bad things were was beyond insane. And his assertion that bringing Afghanis to America was the best way to defeat the Taliban was illusionary. Is this man really military? His answers were not direct, clear, and avoided anything approaching taking responsibility for atmospheres he helped create. A most disappointing moment. But you still managed to express the soul that is in our questions, outrage at incompetence, blame shifting, and intellectual laziness. Thank you for staying close to the American soul.
"When will there be justice in Athens? There will be justice in Athens when those who are not injured are as outraged as those who are." ~ Thucydides
The casualties we require are for those in command, field officers and leading politicians, who put our dead in harm's way--and escaped themselves. It is they who deserve loss of benefits, banishment from decent company, and everlasting shame. Gen. McMaster among them.
100%. When is JUST ONE of the political elite going to be held accountable? JUST ONE. Until that happens I have no hope for our country.
McMaster defends the US flying the gay pride flag in Afghanistan because this is really who the Afghani’s were in the 1970s. We weren’t taunting them but being true to them. What???? Bari thankfully expressed skepticism.
Why is McMaster giggling so much in this interview? Beneath the soberness of the topic.
McMaster’s solution? Full on immigration of Afghani’s to America so they can save Afghanistan from here. This is not a serious thinker. He is what is wrong with the military. Bari kept trying to put him on the hook. He stumbled and stuttered. He simply would not admit our military leaders are not serious people, even as McMaster is not.
Bari - Hoping that you'll consider publishing a response to Rafia Zakaria's truly retrograde, bigoted commentary which is getting quite a bit of coverage on NPR and in other circles. Its really dangerous and needs urgent attention. Thanks for your consideration.