59 year old white male, 30 years of marriage with kids commenting...
Get out there, and meet people. Some people stink, some are great!!
This week I had to rent a car, and it came down to Avis (old school) versus Zipcar (new school). I went with Avis on price. Now that sends you to a morning counter line where you HAVE TO TALK WITH A PERSON to get a car.
The woman behind the counter was a Black woman, and she remembered me from past rentals which was years ago. She was really funny at 8 am in the morning. We exchanged some fun repartee, and guess what? She upgraded me 2 levels of car for no charge!! I am a large man and she would not put me in the smaller car!!
God bless her.
My advice - get off the phones, and go make some mistakes with real people. Correcting the mistakes is part of the fun, and people will respect you in REAL life.
Here here. Nothing like the real world. Dump the screens. Go to parties, Starbucks, the grocery store, take a cooking class, visit the freaking library or go shopping. Take a road trip and stay off the Interstates. Go to a carnival or a brewery or a vineyard or a the corner pizza joint or deli. Sheesh. This isn't rocket science.
My friend's daughter at a public university attended a local Catholic church while in college. She went on a retreat with that church, met a young man who attended the same university, they began dating and will be married next summer. She's a VERY quiet girl, he's an outgoing young man. She's 1/2 Filipino, 1/2 Italian. He's 1/2 German, 1/2 Vietnamese. Find something you have in common and work from there, especially if the foundation is faith based.
Catholic churches today have VERY diverse congregations. My parish had Filipino; Indian and Latino congregants. The Universal Church does indeed exist. I encountered it in Taiqan and Korea while traveling on business
My community's residents are generally white, but of course visitors of many ethnicities. We recently hired a new music director....from the Bahamas! So excited to hear his take on the music. My parents used to spend Feb. in the Bahamas and the music at mass was phenomenal. Catholic means universal....so it makes sense.
you might be surprised how diverse "sermons" can be!
that said, "church" can be any place of spiritual renewal for you~ a singles camping group, for example, or a mingle at an art gallery, an alumni group of some sort often hosts socials, too!
All of this plus get involved in your community. Be a volunteer. Talk to everyone. People know other people. Join a club for whatever you're interested in--bicycling, birdwatching, reading, board games--that already gives you something in common with the other people there.
It depends on the dog park, but, now that I live in a smaller town, I *do* have lots of casual conversation with people when I'm walking my dogs and they're walking theirs. I'll talk to anyone, though, so I wouldn't necessarily say this is a way to get a date but it certainly makes me day more interesting.
yes it does. but having a large breed I get. oh no look at your dog trying to bite Fifi.. or Oh they are too rough. or why does he have two balls. why isnt he neutered. blah blah blah
I think one of the main points in this article is that those tactics no longer work. (Too risky for a variety of reasons that were not a concern pre-#metoo + other hazards and exaggerated fears after being shielded from risks as children, etc. .)
With #MeToo, the specific problem is it labeled "unwanted advances" as a subtype of sexual harassment.
31 year-old single guy here, and it does raise the stakes a fair bit that if you ask a girl out and she says yes, it's a date, but if she says no, certain progressives would say you've now sexually harassed her (especially since a lot of communal spaces like the office and the gym have been declared no-go zones for asking girls out to ever be appropriate).
I won't touch dating apps though because I have heard nothing positive about what they do for users' mental health.
It's sad to see so many young people have been convinced that online dating apps are the only way to meet people. That would lead to a depressing existence and feelings of hopelessness.
I've found that people who wouldn't give you a second glance on a dating app are much more amenable if you talk to them in person. There is so much more to communication that is being missed through online chatting.
I'm an old man that did his dating in the 70s/80s, and it was scary back then too. Most of my fear was of the humiliation of being turned down when approaching a female. Now, I'm sure there's still that, but much of what we considered flirting is now considered violence against females. Add to that the Title IX (which is to males what CRT is to people of European descent) threats on campus, and now you've got a generation of males who have a lot to lose when approaching females. On top of all of that, far more young people are living at home now than back in my day, which makes them less desirable as a relationship candidate.
I appreciate that females and LGBs have their own perspective, that I can't relate to, that contribute to this phenomenon as well.
Social media, #MeToo, cancel culture, Title IX and a bunch of other factors have all contributed to this, imho, and I don't know how we turn the tide.
Women went from "free sex, anytime, anywhere" to "you'd better get my written consent before every progression of physical intimacy or I'll accuse you of rape" in the blink of an eye.
I agree that fears induced by the #MeToo movement and other recent developments have eliminated many of the approaches to meeting a woman that were available to me in the 60s. To women who complain about not being able to meet a guy: As you sow, so shall you reap. To men: Join a church.
I live in a summer resort community and each week our Catholic church is packed. As I watch the communion line I see many young people. That means those young people are taking time out of their weekend visit to attend mass. My daughter and her new boyfriend came home for the weekend and attended mass (daughter is a regular mass goer) and the night before they were at a local bar. They said they brought the age down significantly (21); so young people were at mass and not so much at the bars.
Might be a healthy trend? The last thirty years have been very cynical, and fragile. Maybe it's time for a return to spirituality, whether it's in the church or other sources.
I've never been a church person, but have enjoyed solitary mushroom foraging, trout fishing, bird hunting, golfing and hiking. A therapist once asked me if I was spiritual, I answered no, as I assumed that meant Godly. After hearing of my pastimes, she proclaimed me quite spiritual.
The internet has replaced spirituality, and godamit, China, NoKo and Russia have it right to suppress it in order to not poison it's citizens.
TY for Your comment, Sir Jon. How to turn the tide? Dunno.
But I would suspect *part-a* it is political. Do away with the Title IX crap and the DEI administrators/judges/juries/executioners and see what happens.
The male/female ratio isn't very good. That's a *real* tough one. But it's not a show-stopper, AFAIK.
Attitudes of young men and women? The long-term solution is for them to change. Toughest row to hoe.
My lame suggestion would be for them to emulate their parent's and grandparent's *best* qualities instead-a their peer's. The young might be surprised to find there *are* some worth emulating and giving up. That's just me.
I think you're right that there's a political component. I am young enough that I still have peers and friends in the thick of dating/searching for spouses and the experiences represented in this article seem much more indicative of urban areas. In rural areas, the young seem much more interested in steady girlfriends and boyfriends, marrying young, and having families. Could be that rural areas tend to be red areas tend to value family. That and most people are out and about interacting, not squirreled away in their homes on their screens.
I have a 21 yo daughter and 20 yo son. Our daughter is dating a young man and both are dating toward the idea of marriage.....not just to date.....which I think is fabulous. I have many nieces between 27-33 and they are struggling mightily to find dates that lead to marriage....well dates at all. I do think this is generational.
One of the problems facing our youth is that they have never really had to face real-world problems. With this in mind, universal service might go a long way to solve the "attitude problem."
Something like what Israel and Switzerland have. After high school, everyoe serves their country for 1-2 years. In these countries, it's military, but I would extend that to include all kinds of needed service - military, medical, labor, however one can serve. By extending it in this way, even the physically challenged can serve. Everybody needs a stake in America!
all these comments are spot on. heading into my 12 year of marriage, three kids---GET OFF THE APPS. They are not helping. This generation of western kids are addicted to apps. That's not how the majority of the world met or meets their spouses. Go volunteer. Go back to school, if it makes sense. Or at least go find a class or lecture that involves something you're interested in, and mingle. Join a sports club. A hiking club. Beer Club. A Dungeons and Dragon's club! Go meet people in person doing non-dating things so you can see what they are like. If they seem like someone you'd like to get to know better, ask them out! The worst they will say is no, then you move on and find someone new. It's hard, but completely worth it.
Or go to church? i was not a church goer, and didn't meet my wife that way, but I know a lot of people that did. It would be interesting to see the correlation between declining levels of church attendance, and the decline of marriages.
that is a great suggestion! I'm jewish so it didn't come directly to mind, but I have a ton of Christian friends and they meet their friends/spouses at church. I know shuls are about meeting friends and family too; I'll also throw in mosques, temples, whatever floats your boat. But get out there. I agree, I also think declining levels of religious support in the west are definitely related to decline of marriage. Having a strong moral foundation and a community to help is critical, and if people are just stuck behind their phones on the couch, they are not getting its value.
Absolutely! We were created to be social creatures. Hiding behind a screen goes against our DNA. Churches, mosques, temples etc have opportunities to volunteer and help people in your community. But religious organizations are not the only ones who do this. The point is to get your mind off of your own problems by helping someone else with theirs. It makes you feel good when you realize that your existence can make a difference to someone else. In doing so, you form relationships with new people that can develop into something permanent.
As a Catholic who returned to the church during the pandemic, I agree this is a great idea, particularly if you have kids. The church has many opportunities for kids to meet others with similar values.
This article inspired me to subscribe (after lurking for 18 months) - so thank you Suzy Weiss.
My 26 year old son will marry next month.
I admit that he was approaching Incel status pre-COVID. His family were greatly concerned for his prospects.
Almost unbelievably, during COVID, he has got a good job, graduated university, found a girlfriend, proposed marriage, and bought a house.
Strangely enough he met his fiance on Tinder......BUT.....he opened his profile with the word "Christian".
He did not want to waste time with anyone who did not share is faith. They are from different denominations (my son is devoutly Catholic), but they make it work.
Yay....so glad you came back to the church! I missed mass so much when we were closed for a few months. Watching it on TV is not the same....we need community.
As a "Cafeteria Catholic", it was years of not going to Mass. My Son with Autism led me back. We now have a Special Needs Mass at Blessed Sacrament in Manhattan, and my not-Catholic wife was the one that got us to all go. It is a beautiful community and it led me to some great Special Needs Housing+ projects - https://carousel51.substack.com/p/july-2020-update-for-archcare-at
Issue of young people being lonely is runs very deep in our society. One of main reasons is that notion of family and marriage, taking next step in life with a partner has been demonized and obstructed on every corner.
For last 30 years young men are being told, that only way to measure his worth, is his net worth, and any other traditional values are worthless and useless.
Young women are told to having family and kids is nightmare from middle ages and that only way for woman to be liberated from oppressive patriarchy is to be speding 24/7 grinding in some corporate offices and to change partners more often than socks. Sadly in many cases when women realize that traditional values are not the enemy, in many cases biological clock has taken his toil.
For those, who forgoe above mentioned brainwash, they find that cards are stacked extremly against them. Buying home for young couples has become a nightmare in itself, housing is unaffordable across the country, rents are skyrocketing. Young moms in Hospitals are being called "birthing persons", further dehumanizing such important societal role.
Then daycare for children, is in some areas so expensive, that one partner has only work to pay for it.
When kids are ready for school, nightmare continues, those same forces that are telling young women not to have kids and families, for some reason are very interested in having their say what kids should learn in school (it seem that they follow old saying "get them while they are young").
Similar issues continue in university.
After seeing all this, only crazy person would want family or any kind of commitment, we have come to a situation, where all cards are stacked against young couples, while universities, social media and MSM are all yelling in one voice that any traditional values are bad.
Everybody experiences hopelessness, but hopelessness is not the end of the line. Look at it, go beyond it, trial and error, one step at a time, get angry with the spiritual world and then wait for some kind of answer, take yourself on a trudging walk, be willing through clenched teeth to forgive yourself and others, and on and on... Just don't be willing to let hopelessness reign. And give yourself a sincere pat on the back. You are worth it.
TY, Anne B. Haha! Right You are. I had a hard time forgiving myself for a long while. It was *awful.*
And, as it happens, I'm listening to a CD this week that's concentrating on experiencing GRATITUDE. I got a *loooong* Way to go on it. But what gratitude does is help You become more trusting of people and the future.
This and the things You mention are *acquired* skills, AFAIK. And the way they come is by practicing them. And the first step in practice is to *try* them out, if You haven't already, right?
My German grandmother thought it worthwhile to bring up children despite living during the Nazi period. You cannot get too much of a worse time than that.
I think you have stated the problem well (I was searching for a way to do it so thank you), only I remain more optimistic. Pendulums swing and then they swing back. I think we might be due for a swing...
"When kids are ready for school, nightmare continues, those same forces that are telling young women not to have kids and families, for some reason are very interested in having their say what kids should learn in school (it seem that they follow old saying "get them while they are young")."
Yes! Then, at school your daughter will be informed that she might not even be a girl, that if she likes boys she could even be a gay boy herself! All these forces are so destructive it is hard not to feel that it is intentional, but is it? I don't know.
Raziel, you’re a typical woke culture warrior sitting upon your perch of judgment, making declarations without proof to back them up. Existing in a cloister of cohort culture warriors, all sitting upon their perches, pontificating to each other, none think to question each other for fear of banishment. Your primary thesis is: that marriage and family have been demonized; where is the proof? I don’t have high expectations, but I like surprises, so please provide facts to support your thesis.
Yeah, in Suzy’s last paragraph, she equated dating for him, “trying to get someone to like you, to sleep with you” — and *then*, “to be your girlfriend”— umm…
I guess I don't understand your point. No woman is going to take the huge step to a committed relationship (girlfriend) before sleeping with the guy - that's just part of evaluating basic compatibility.
It certainly worked for my parents and most in their generation. The complete opposite seems not to be working... I think the attitude with which you approach dating is very important - so that when you "get" a date - what exactly do you have?
Married 35 years, and we didn't have sex until the wedding night.
I guess if the ONLY thing you're in a marriage for is the sex, you'd want a test drive. But marriage is far, far more than sex.
My own primary concern was finding a partner on the same spiritual wavelength. I had discovered during my teens that, despite most of my peers sharing the same religion, they did not all have the same feelings about spirituality. Some were fanatics. Some were constantly pushing boundaries (although not always the same ones). Some genuinely believed. Some were merely social believers. I felt that my best chance for a happy and lasting relationship was with someone who shared the same approach.
I didn't say that couples shouldn't TALK about sex before marriage. That should definitely be as much a part of the conversation as how many kids you want, how you plan to deal with finances, what your life goals are, etc.
Yikes, I really hope you’re being facetious here!!! “NO. Woman”—?!?!
Do you *know* that many women??
HELLO!
Woman here! Young, reasonably attractive…finds that attitude DISGUSTING!!
And my feeling is NOT uncommon!
The high quality women of worth and beauty exterior and interior that *I* know typically want to feel LOVED and CONNECTED WITH emotionally
(yes, sorry! A real relationship with a woman requires the development of some emotional intelligence of her particular spirit—with the expectation that you are attracted to her spirit as well as to her body),
and yes, to feel PROTECTED in her lovingness and sensitivity and yes, physical needs (because typically she may one day theoretically be vulnerably carrying and caring for your children)
BEFORE they experience physical pleasure with someone.
I.E. Physical pleasure comes for a woman usually *after* the. Love. Is affirmed at every level.
Sorry to burst your bubble so energetically. I mean it warmly.
I think someone else (like She Has Invisible Friends) is going to do a better job responding to this than I am but here I go - giving it a try.
Of course, a couple needs to be compatible but women and men are really not the same (I hear screaming from the Woke crowd) even though on an individual level people can vary from the norm of course. A single woman might have a fling but generally if she is sleeping with a man she is probably not emotionally clinically detached from him. It is more likely that the heart and body are working together on this. She's just been told that "equality" means she operates like a man and she really doesn't.
Dating is the mating dance people do prior to the huge step of marriage (public declaration that you intend to spend your life together and you have decided that you are family). And it does include sex in the modern age. Most women who are being true to themselves are not going to sleep with a bunch of men at once and then decide, gee, I will be in a girlfriend relationship with this one. Maybe men are like that and it may be why gay men who want committed relationships have an even more difficult time. I don't know. But, sure, a girl friend and a boy friend are in an exclusive relationship but not "taken" if they are single/unmarried.
One thing that struck me was I know very religious people whose kids don't date, they "court". Which, in case you're not old like me, means you go out with people but you are looking for a spouse. You are not trying to "hook up" or "play the field" or whatever is the current terminology. The young people who approach it that way seem very successful because people come in with reasonable expectations.
Tall isn't very important when you are thinking you are going to spend the rest of your life with someone but kind certainly is. Shared interests and compatibility are more important than a big checkbook. I hope our younger people are able to find their way...
I have a granddaughter who is courting now. It’s a lovely sight to see 2 young people (both 23) who have decided to approach life so carefully without sex being the center. They truly want to honor God in everything they do. They were both homeschooled and this helped greatly to shape them I’m sure.
There is a lot of not great stuff that comes along with courtship culture, though. Take a look at the story around the book “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” and the fallout, if you’re not familiar with it.
That is popular culture's derision that you are listening to -- you're responding from the very same problematic framework which suzy is rather feebly trying to understand in the article.
In reality those marriages which are based on courtship - instead of the floundering desperation created from sexual encounter - typically last a lifetime.
As long as one's frame of reference is movies, tv, and tiktok, one will continue to fail.
The people I know aren't courting at 18 because they take marriage very seriously so wait a few years before starting. I doubt there have been any studies that show the long term success of people who court versus those who do not. My guess from my admittedly small sample size is that those who court are happier in their marriage because of realistic expectations.
I think the people you know are not typical of the communities that favor courtship. We definitely took marriage seriously - in fact, as girls we were told that it was the most important thing we would ever do, that it was for life, and that if we ever divorced, we’d be permanently damaged goods. My friends typically married at 21 or so. My nephew married at 22 but his wife was 19. There are some things that are very good about a model that encourages people to treat sex as sacred and to approach relationships with marriage in mind, but I’d say that in my community at least 50% of those couples divorced within 5 years. Courtships are often very short and the couple don’t spend time alone together, so they may not know each other very well. I married very late for my community, and was divorced within 3 years.
I just don’t think courtship is the solution for what ails modern relationships. It’s the opposite end of the spectrum, and I feel like we need to land somewhere in the middle.
Dating-as-courting is built into my culture, and marriage is intended to be a permanent commitment. Most of my friends from high school and college are, in fact, still married to their original spouse. The few marriages that did end in divorce were plagued with infidelity and/or abuse.
It sounds like you are describing hookup culture, in which case yes, I agree with you. But many people are looking for real relationships, yet the same problem exists: the sexes have no way of meeting. In a world in which everyone can make their own rules, all rules become meaningless, and men and women no longer know how to come together. We've lost the cultural elements that used to provide this pathway... this "dance" as it were. Now men and women are afraid of each other, and neither has any confidence when it comes to dating and sex. Dating apps only exacerbate this problem.
I personally agree with you that a marriage mindset would eliminate much of the confusion, but I happen to have a marriage mindset myself, and my biggest problem isn't that women don't want a committed relationship - its that the only way to meet single women is through apps - the same apps that overwhelm women with attention and leave most men with zero attention. It's a complicated problem, linked to a shift in the guiding philosophy of society, technological innovation, and overall breakdown of community and connectedness, in my estimation.
Skip the apps. Interact in the real world. Make eye contact. Smile. Be kind (not gullible, kind). All of this builds confidence and there is nothing sexier than confidence.
Ok, James, I see, i think you were writing above from a standpoint of… frustration or hopelessness. You’re very right on point. So a friend and I were discussing this and the only key we can see is, besides returning to God and establishing that relationship with Him first (or deepening it) personally and as a norm in society, is to be the new “normal” that you want others to be.
Be friendly, warm, interact with strangers of ALL types without pretense and without ulterior motive. Care for all types. Let women see the value of you— and that doesn’t mean you get trapped in the “friend zone”— you can retain a masculine mystery to the ladies too— women want to see a man who cares for ALL TYPES OF PEOPLE. :) The art of the heart.
Good advice. I always paid attention to how the guy was with others - not just with me.
It is a problem that we have an "overall breakdown of community and connectedness" as James says. I'm grateful that I wouldn't know how to go on a dating app. Still, I don't remember it all being particularly easy. There must be clubs to join? Biking? Volunteering? "After work" this and that at the museum or what-have-you? Alumni events?
LM - long married woman with almost grown kids - one a recovering ROGD & I'm bothered as H* about Radical Gender Ideology and "affirmation" (the next thing to deal with if you achieve family of your own).
My 21 yo daughter is in her first real relationship with a 22 yo man are dating toward marriage. She was never interested in dating for dating sake and neither is he. They speak about the future when the converse; like how many kids would you want, what would you name a dog, etc. There are no plans yet as they finish college but the security, respect and responsibility they share will take them a long way toward a marriage covenant.
I agree! One does not have to marry but for most people in most cases that is supposed to be the healthy set up/respectful end goal of dating. Maybe the first tries don't work out but that's the framework. Throw that away as a society and no wonder so many are unhappy.
I think Shane would be better off if he could be happy first with himself. No relationship is going to bring him that which comes from within. If he's looking for a soulmate (which is a totally BS word that someone made up 25 years ago), he would do well to be his own soulmate. No relationship is going to "complete" him.
I would tell Jeff to, yes, do exactly that. Walk up to a strange woman in a grocery store and say "Oh, you're buying bananas too?" He'll know in about three seconds whether she's interested or not. If she's not, and if he has anything approximating what could be described as half a brain, he'll know and take his leave before the concern about creepiness kicks in. I would argue further that the point is the asking, not the getting the date, which is pure gravy. Would his results be any worse? Asking a woman for a date in person is way more riskier than sitting on the couch in one's shorts swiping left. Or is it right? Some young people weren't even allowed the risk of walking three and a half blocks to grade school, so asking a girl out can be pretty scary. I get it.
As to being hurt or getting one's heart broken? What healthy person hasn't had that experience? It's a part of life. So put your big boy pants on and man up:
"Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all".
Shane needs to get the F off Reddit. Hearing the opinions of thousands of strangers you'll never meet exacerbates insecurities about physical appearance and mistakenly magnifies its importance. Shorter men have been dating and getting married and having children forever. Do they have a harder time? Absolutely. It's one of the few preferences women have that are pretty universal. But as he says, it is what it is and he can't change it, and he is working hard at the gym to be the best version of himself that he can be. In the real world, that has to be enough, and wallowing in Reddit prejudice is shooting yourself in the foot. I know this from personal experience, I did this to myself for 4 years and it did not serve me. Since I quit Reddit at the beginning of this year, my mental health is greatly improved.
Shorter men can ALWAYS find beautiful ladies even shorter… there are ZILLIONS of adorable petite couples. Taller ladies have as hard a time finding someone kind who is also attractive to THEM. Everyone has their own problems…
Actually I think “Jeff” could try practicing first, by walking up to *anyone* and having a pleasant conversation about nothing. So few people can converse with strangers about common banalities anymore. You become a lot more “normal” to attractive people if you are comfortable meeting all types of people.
It’s curious how few GenZs have the skill of ‘small talk’ with the strangers we meet in everyday life. As a member of GenX, it seems the ‘gift of the gab’ is something we all learned quite well. It’s also something that I quite enjoy, and helps to make me feel connected to others.
I lived in NYC for many, many years. And being a walker in a walking city, I don't think a day or two passed without having a one or two or three minute conversation with a total stranger. One such encounter resulted in four dates. Another resulted in a twelve year monogamous relationship that began in yes, you guessed it, a supermarket.
We’ll said. Just go out into the world and meet other interesting people without any pretense. If one’s underlying motive is to get laid, get a date, or sell Amway products, people usually sense that. Be genuine and just talk to people.
You said it: the MOTIVE is what separates a self-interested creeper from a caring, attractive individual interested in all others, worth smiling back at and getting to know as a person.
I agree, Shane needs to be happy with himself first. I went to Penn State, there are 40,000 kids on campus with plenty of opportunity to find a suitable mate.
Conversations are a gift; they become magical when they are about nothing and have no other purpose than the conversation itself. Too often, it seems, we want to assign purpose to everything but the truth is not all connections or conversations need to be anything other than just enjoyable. I speak to people in stores or in bars not because they have something I want or because I want to have a sexual relationship but simply because it is social and, yes, it is connective. Many, if not most, of the people I end up briefly talking to I will never see again and if I do I nod in acknowledgment of recognizing them and say hello and that's it.
It feels as though we have somehow made relationships commodities and confused their value with purpose instead of appreciating their simple existence.
Commodities indeed. I'm a blabbermouth and love to chat to anyone, when I moved to the UK from Canada it was a real culture shock, there's no interaction with everyday people in London, not the culture. Not even smiling or looking someone in the eyes! I couldn't take it anymore and moved to Rio de Janeiro where Brazilian culture is one where strangers greet each other on the street and spontaneous conversations happen non-stop, I love it! I found my heaven of conversation and chatting and it enriches life so very much. No surprise after being single for very long I met my husband here. Cultural differences are huge part of all this. The art of conversation is dying and nobody appreciates a good exchange about nothing with a fellow citizen.
I see it, I am from Texas, but visit Scotland for bidness fairly often. When I’m in Glasgow, and maybe smile at someone and ask how they’re doing - I get looked at like a psychopath. The pandemic hasn’t helped with loddydoddy and everbody masked up, but what is considered normal here ain’t there.
I also recommend moving to Brazil to cure depression, worked for me! I fell in love with the language so it was a pleasure to learn it here, you can't get by in English at all. I was already bilingual (French) but being fully immersed with a strong desire to learn the language made it easy. I started a completely new life, new career, new everything and have never looked back. Being brave and making big changes is exhilarating and fulfilling although I appreciate not always possible for everyone, but for more people than you would think!
Well, I m in immigrant. I know how it feels. :) this wouldn’t be the first bold move for me. And I already speak four languages. But now it’s about the entire family and kids… I ought to take this responsibility for three more people.
"It feels as though we have somehow made relationships commodities..."
That's the whole *PURPOSE* of social media and these dating apps. To make what-i-call "pretend" relationships. To make that addictive. And then to *monetize* it. And if they can find a way to make *more* money selling this commodity, You can be sure it'll be tried.
And so it goes. Until One gets off the merry-go-round...
Yes. And because everyone has worth and a story to tell and sometimes they are interesting and fascinating and your day is enriched beyond measure as a result.
My mother and father flew a lot for business and leisure. My mom will talk to ANYONE and I've picked up that (good) habit. On one trip she began talking to a woman and learned the story of the woman being a Holocaust survivor. My mother kept in touch with her until she died. My mom also met a flight attendant and still keeps in touch with her. It's amazing how we can tough others' lives and enrich our own by asking questions and listening!
Then take it — not your earbuds and iPhone — for a walk.
I know of a beautiful young woman who some day wants a large family, something north of 1.6 kids. She’s used multiple sites, including Christian Mingle. Inevitably, the budding relationships come down to “the talk.”
This woman is traditional. Sex is special, not something you toss out. She wants to wait, ideally till marriage. If not then, at least until she and he are committed to something more than a common interest in craft beers. This is an intelligent, funny, educated woman who teaches little kids, loves baseball, good books, music, board games, politics, cooking, and people. She wants a mate, not a hookup. Needless to say, she’s still very single.
We, the Boomers and beyond, have destroyed every institution that made long-term, monogamous relationships something to be desired and nurtured. Marriage. Church. Family. Friendship. Community. Schools. All have been damaged (irreparably?) or rejiggered into machines that pump out robotic narcissists. I’ve heard one sage man say our world is now a billion little bubbles of Ego. They collide and burst because no one can understand why the other can’t or won’t do things his or her way. That old “my way or the highway” thing.
There is a way to fix this. Relegate technology to its rightful role of servant not master. Recognized you’re going to get hurt. (But, hey, the way I see it, the current system, like an opiate, is destroying you.) Then get out and meet your future face to face.
I agree with your dad. I spent my middle school years studying dogs behavior and training techniques. Since then after all the degrees etc, I often think that was the most useful use of my time and academic concentration… 😊
It's funny, but I got my first puppy almost two years ago at the ripe old age of 43. I already have the husband, the house, the kids, the career. I just wanted the puppy, lol. However, walking her and bringing out and about has been eye opening. I have met and had nice conversations with all sorts of people I never would have spoken to before. Plus, anyone who doesn't think my dog is cute is not worth my time. Since all this started, I couldn't help but think that having a dog must be a great way to meet people. I love my husband, but I bet I could have found him earlier if I had the dog in my single years. Best advice ever is to get a puppy!!
Great advice, assuming people will be responsible and commit to having a dog and not just get bored and dump the dog in the shelter after a year.
I can’t count the number of conversations we’ve had with people just because we had our dog with us. A cute dog is definitely an entry point to meeting all kinds of people out in meatspace.
All of those end with me insisting no, they do *not* want a Siberian.
All dogs need attention but Sibes are a universe unto themselves and most people simply will not put in the time required to have a healthy, well behaved Sibe.
“The people are unhappy, the dog is unhappy and it doesn’t end well. DON’T DO IT TO THE DOG OR YOURSELF!”
Yeah, we, the Siberians are moody cuz we got Dostoevsky in our bones. 🤣🤣I m just kidding.
Russians rarely agree on anything between themselves, but one thing seems to have an overwhelming agreement among all Russians: the Siberians (the people), are special.
No, I haven’t. I have never heard of him and just looked him up. His is one of the millions tragic fates in that area at those times. I was born in the USSR and I was twelve years old when it collapsed. That’s when numerous memories like Cizchek’s poured from the pages of mass media into our lives and people started opening up..
My husband was born in Tadzhikistan, the Muslim Soviet republic next to Afghanistan. His neighbor was an elderly lady who spoke perfect English. She taught him since his early childhood in the end of 1960s-early 1970s. She was the wife of the “enemy of the people” that was an oficial Soviet label for relatives of those who were sent to Gulag. Those relatives were not allowed to settle in major cities or take important positions, only the simplest of jobs. Aand they were sent to the outskirts of the USSR. Her case was particularly hard cause her husband was a Brit who believed in communists. She lived with him in UK until he decided to come to USSR to build communism. He ended up in Gulag. She - in Tadzhikistan. I don’t think they ever saw each other again. I often think of her because she gave my husband a gift of perfect English while he was a simple Soviet child and an enormous competitive advantage when he arrived to the US in 1989. But I haven’t ever heard of Ciczek. Bless his soul….
Wowwww… These are stories we all NEED to hear… every American school kid saw presentations from survivors of Nazi horror camps, and Hollywood made dozens of excellent movies to warn us about them…but NO ONE educated us— about as much as YOU were!!!— on the horrors of Communism!! So today we have millions of young, overeducated for their intelligence lunatics, fighting for a nightmare they think is a romantic dream, egged on by ignoramus academics who never lived in the real world. WE NEED TO HEAR YOUR STORIES.
Yeah, I remember Fr. Ciszek wrote how he was barred from moving here or there after his release (forget about returning to the US, his family thought he was dead) But he had a blessed happy ending— after 23 years he was swapped for spies and returned home— he was to be President JFK’s next appointment upon his unfated return from Dallas in 1963— a gift for us because the memoirs he wrote have blessed millions with the spiritual fruits he reaped from his tremendous suffering and apparent abandonment by God (he never was, actually).
Please read his books… he is going to be a saint one day… his writings awakened in my soul a deeper love for God in my own sufferings. God bless you!! Thank you for sharing. I can imagine hearing these stories would give horrible pain for those who lived there among them.
Yeah, that is a good point. I have a Newfoundland which is a definite huge commitment. I would amend my advice to get a puppy, but research well and get the type of puppy that best fits your lifestyle and your capabilities of care. Even researching to find the best type of puppy can totally be a way to meet people, too
I'm so glad I missed the dating apps by a few years. I met my wife in a bar the old fashioned way. I told that to my Gen Z co-workers and their jaws dropped like I was from another planet. It was never easy working up the courage to meet people but it sure beats swiping and waiting and dwelling.
Same here. A Saturday night fifty three years ago at Lucifer's in Boston. That's the way we used to do it. There were bands, dancing, booze, and women who wanted to meet men. You met people face to face in those days. Life was fun. We've been married 51 years, and I've never had any second thoughts or regrets about it.
Granted I am older than dirt but when I read that Shane was 20 and hadn't had sex, I thought - I really am out of it. Most men I knew at 20 were far more worried about being sent to Vietnam than about their lack of sex.
One suggestion for young men from this oldie. Get over yourself: learn how to really listen to a woman without wondering when and if you will bed her .I don't know a woman of any age who doesn't stay away from those types. Develop a sense of humor which is far more important than how tall you are.. Get off Tinder get out of the basement, buy a backpack and start traveling. You will meet a lot more interesting people and will have experiences that will open up YOUR horizons and make YOU a far more interesting person.
It is easy and no doubt legitimate to blame snowplow parents for your plight. But you have no one to blame but yourself if you find yourself in your 20's watching porn all day and sitting in a basement moaning and groaning about how mean the world is to you . The world has always been a mean place - learning how to cope with that is what growing up is all about. . :
My son (26) recently explained why he has trouble dating.
Hookup culture rules the day; the ladies just disappear, and that includes actual friends of friends, which is his only dating pool. They simply say, up front, they’re never interested in actually dating.
He and his friends get creeped on social media and that’s a disturbing tale: if they are dating they get endless crap for anything that appears on their Instagram feed. One example was looking at any other girl’s post at all, another was what news item they’ve viewed.
Now that all comes after college, where the men’s sports team was required to watch a shockingly anti-male Title IX video featuring, among other things, examples of overtly inappropriate sexual harassment and clear warnings that they’ll be expelled instantly on the first complaint with no warning or recourse.
More broadly, my son has found that nearly all young women are, to him, immature, specifically they cannot hold a conversation about much of anything. Some openly say they’ll only hook up with GFs to avoid “toxic” males. (That really shocked me)
So you’ve written an excellent article (as usual) but missed all of that.
Maybe it is geographic, maybe just by accident, but find a few kids who aren’t dysfunctional, scared or just insecure and see what they’ve noticed.
Seriously, the parents on this page could become effective matchmakers. Send five questions to the prospective daters and get them to talk. There are a lot of great girls looking for great guys. We need to figure out how to help them find each other.
The total fertility rate (TFR) is the number of children the average woman has in her reproductive lifetime. It needs to be a bare minimum of 2.1 for a civilization to survive. The TFR in the US today is around 1.6 and dropping. Sub replacement TFRs are becoming the norm around the world.
It appears that modernity is not a viable civilizational norm.
Don’t worry some of us have three or four to keep up haha. I love my babies. In all seriousness I realize that a small portion of the population that has more kids won’t totally outweigh the majority who are not, but I think the kids of the small portion will have seen a larger family modeled to them.
I am not worried about American TFR. We are the richest country in the world and have a long history of immigration: young and bright people world over would want to come to our country and become great American citizens.
It's just a phase where the elites have jammed up our minds with Xenophobia for political gain. That too shall pass like it did in our history.
I agree, we in the US will be fine. Our country is a desirable target for immigrants and our population density is still quite low. I, for one, would like to see us accept a lot more immigrants than we do.
And yet, as a solution to collapsing fertility rates immigration is clearly not going to work. Immigration is zero sum: If we gain someone else loses.
To Linus and Stephen, this an interesting observation about the US still being attractive to young and bright people world over.. I am an immigrant, I have been in California for 20 years and all this time I have been surrounded by other immigrants and I see the enthusiasm over the US cooling off in our circles. Let me share a couple of stories here. They do look like anecdotal evidences, but they also somewhat highlight an overall mood in the professional immigration circles here, in the Silicon Valley and beyond.
A client of mine, an MD from New Jersey was brought here from Russia in the early 1990s. She went to high school and got her degree in the US and worked here for a number of years. In 2019 while in her mid 30s, she went to her native Krasnoyarsk for a year of sabbatical with her husband and two kids and they haven’t been back to the US since. She says she doesn’t want to; mainly because of the kids. She is concerned about the suffocating children vaccinations requirement (she is an MD), and an overall climate in the US.
A fellow mom from the German school here in the Silicon Valley made a decision to move back to Berlin after her two kids were walking home from the train station and police car stopped them and drove them home giving parents a warning of the unsafe behavior. This happened in Mt.View, in the heart of the Silicon Valley, couple of miles away from Google HQ. It was a ten minute walk through a lively downtown and the kids were 7 and 9 years old. The fact that such situation can be considered “unsafe” is insane for Europeans. Her husband was on an “O” Visa at Google, it’s a “special abilities” visa, granted to highly skilled professionals with unique skillset and it is easily transferred into Green Card. They abandoned their Green Cards and went back to Germany citing better environment for kids.
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Another friend of mine here in the Silicon Valley is from Crimea (Russia-Ukraine-Russia-Rinse-Repeat). She and her husband are US citizens and their three kids were born in California. Every summer she spends in the Crimea. She flew her brood to the Crimea this summer as well, while the war is in progress. She just came back, kids had wonderful time over there making friends and exploring surroundings unattended. She is certain she will get her kids out of California and preferably from the US and will not allow their puberty years to be spent here. Her husband, who is a Russian immigrant as well, works at Apple and is concerned that he won’t find a good position in Europe, let alone in Russia. There are tensions about it between the two of them, but she is determined to take her children away from the US at least during their formative puberty years.
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I myself am frantically looking for ways to move my California born kids out of the Silicon Valley into a healthier and less robotic environments. I consider Italy, Eastern Europe or Brazil, given that Russia and Ukraine are no options for us right now.
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These stories do sound like anecdotal evidences. Yet, they also highlight an overall mood in the immigrant circles, at least in the post-Soviet and in the European professional immigration that I am exposed to. These are all people with advanced degrees and highly paid positions in the leading, global companies, who once viewed the US as a very attractive destination.
I think that right now the US to professional immigrants is what Ivy League school to the high school age kids parents. The momentum is still there, the admissions into the Ivy League schools are still sought after, but some serious exodus has begun and this exodus includes the most independent, daring minds, that America has historically prided itself for.
The risk that these schools will loose their appeal to the brightest minds out there is serious. And so is the US attractiveness to the professional immigration. Truth is, it mainly applies to Europeans. Chinese and Indian immigrants here, in the Silicon Valley seem to be thriving due to their higher numbers and their own, more insulated cultures; they do not seek to merge with the Americans, the way Europeans and Post-Soviet tend to seek. This is fine, but it may draw a very different cultural landscape.
I will be happy to be wrong and to see that this is a short phase and that in the next couple of years it will be over and my concerns turn out to be a mere paranoia as we all merge into some beautiful, multi-faceted melting pot. However, with the dynamic right now, I am forced to spend my energy to find a better place for my kids outside of the US, because the tragic wisdom of my native Russia has taught me that “a phase” can last a life-time of a generation. Or two.
Naw. That's just a POV (Point of View) that emphasized de-growth. There isn't much inherently a problem with the current population.
And, practically speaking, are *YOU* gonna be the one to tell the third world countries their population can't grow any more? Even if You *are,* do You think You'll be heeded?
"Sub replacement TFRs are becoming the norm around the world." They are becoming the norm in the "advanced" world, the west, plus Japan, S. Korea, etc. (China too, but for very different reasons). Not at all the norm in Africa, L. America, M. East, much of Asia... The totally messed-up, ideologized, alienated, post-human part of the world we inhabit is not "the world." Thank God. And by the way, when we think about a foreign policy where we are "spreading our values," this sort of totally messed-up, nightmarish, social dystopia is what we are pushing on the rest of the world. No wonder some will fight to the death to avoid our "largesse," the 'blessings of liberty', etc.
Fertility rates are very rampant even in developing nations. The primary distinction is the city versus country. Generally Rural areas have high fertility rates, metros have negative rates. Compare Mexico fertility rate to that of Mexico City for example.
I have absolutely no issue with anything in this piece, but I do note a very persistent pattern on the subject. It starts out as a perspective about the state of being a modern young woman ("why are my peers lonelier...") but as always seems to be the case, the primary focus is on the shortcomings of men. Not a single female is profiled. Again, I have no argument with the points made here and I am very glad that I missed the modern state of things, but I would like someone of Suzy's honesty and writing ability to discuss what might be the female contribution to all the dysfunction.
"It starts out as a perspective about the state of being a modern young woman ("why are my peers lonelier...") but as always seems to be the case, the primary focus is on the shortcomings of men."
Yep, I see this here, on unherd, and other publications.
I hadn't considered it before, but you're right. Seems I've seen quite a few articles like this and they're all presented the same way. They are always a profile of troubled young men.
Social media has exacerbated the notion that "perfection" is the only answer when it comes to relationships. It's sort of like the old high school thought process where every girl desires the captain of the football team, and every guy wants the head cheerleader -- except on steroids.
I have an acquaintance who teaches at the college level. Her observation is that sweet, decent kids (especially girls) are so driven by social media to seek out perfection that they ignore the sweet, decent guys sitting next to them in the classroom. She sees this happening at all levels, from middle school through grad school.
Now add in the social pressures promoting a hook-up culture, and the thought process spewed by mass media that long-term relationships and marriage are bad, and the result is a decline in society that's becoming increasingly evident.
Exactly this. 90% of people are trying to date the top 10% most desirable matches, and I have to think that it is because those 10% are easily accessible to everyone on dating apps. It seems like this has really skewed people’s preferences and behavior.
That mostly affects women, statistically. There was a recent study which analyzed the differences between male and female behavior on Tinder. The study demonstrated the men liked 61.9% of women on Tinder and women liked 4.5% of men on Tinder.
Those 4.5% of men end up with something of a feeding frenzy on their hands, so they can date multiple women at a time and ghost girls they get tired of. Those girls getting cheated on and ghosted tend to wind up pretty resentful of men in general.
Wow. That resonates so well with the experience of my gorgeous Lawyer niece. She is now 35 and has finally settled with a divorced father of two. After so many years of dating and being cheated on she started looking in a different pool.
(And they met, by chance, waiting to be seated at a restaurant).
In my teens I consumed a considerable amount of science fiction. A staple was the scenario where a new disease, a new technology such as nuclear weapons, a death ray, or a novel social order - think "Atlas Shrugged" - threatens to wipe out humanity, or worse reduce the Average Man to brain-dead servitude. As we head into the new fall and winter of short, cold days, I cannot escape a certain unease - a feeling that the world is careening out of control - a hellbound train locked on the rails, and that the attacks are coming from so many directions that one doesn't know which threat to fight first.
The traditional Battle of the Sexes, long the subject of comedy, is to my eye not funny anymore. I've had a little brush with it myself, and given the current social - and more importantly, legal - climate, I could not recommend marriage to any young man. Your spouse gets her panties in a wad, and bang! - no-fault divorces are trivially easy; all the prior obstacles to divorce which kept families together during the inevitable rough patches are gone. Fifty percent of first marriages fail, 65% of second, 75% of third, and if you have children - given the "family law" courts' proclivities - you have just locked yourself into supporting someone you don't like for decades, relegated to seeing your own children one evening every other week, maybe living out of your car or jailed for being a "deadbeat dad." Deadbeat? Really, or just broke? Date - or especially marry - an American woman? These days you'd have to be out of your mind.
No, the infiltration of the West's traditions and institutions by socialist/communist soreheads bent on its destruction is nearly complete. Our enemies have figured out how to use our own freedoms against us - as they said they would. Clearly the whole issue is in question. I believe we are in one of those eras that humanity brings upon itself regularly: fight for everything you are worth, or succumb. And if you must succumb, save the last bullet for yourself.
Leaving aside the socialist/communist infiltration for a moment, which may or may not be having a significant effect on dating, what you wrote about the pitfalls of marriage is definitely true.
I am divorced, and it is financially devastating. I could be living well and getting ready for retirement if I had married better (or maybe if my ex wife had?). Instead, retirement is a far off dream, if it is possible at all, and I am watching half of my net pay go out the door every year with the resulting effect on my quality of life.
I laughed at the comedians who joked about losing half their money, but it isn’t funny anymore. I guess I can tell my own son that he would have to be crazy to marry someone who doesn’t have his/her own career. My own father didn’t have this problem, but he was luckier. He grew up in a different time and he chose better.
Despite this, I know I could have been far unluckier. My ex accused me of abusing our son and tried to get sole custody when we divorced, but it didn’t work. Our son is still in my life, and I am thankful for that every day. I personally know at least five men who got divorced and lost their children. As bad as I feel for being forced to give away half my money to a person I truly dislike, it doesn’t come close to the pain these other men feel.
Honestly, why there are not more murders committed by devastated, despondent fathers with nothing to lose is beyond me. Perhaps it's because of their children. As I discovered later, my second wife had an agenda from day one - hypergamy - marrying up to gain access to resources. (Friends never tell you anything until it's so late in the game that it doesn't matter. And here I always thought she wanted me for my scintillating engineer's personality....) The moment she refused to sign a prenup is the day I should have showed her the door. Fortunately we never had any children; she wanted to do so badly, but despite my refusal, of course she "found herself pregnant." Also fortunately, she was too old, with too little hormones, to carry to term. I'm sure a lot smarter now. Just have to educate my sons, although we all know what has no conscience - or brains.
Mine also wouldn’t sign a prenup, and like you, I should have known then and shown her the door. There were a lot of other warning signs. As they say, I saw the red flags and thought it was the circus. The reality distortion field of being in love is powerful.
There are definitely young people who are thriving, have healthy relationships and get married. Every generation has their economic challenges. What we’re pushing is that because those challenges are there better not to do anything and give up. I couldn’t buy a house when I first got married but we managed after a few years.
This is an interesting and incredibly sad article but not every young person is locked in their parent’s basement.
Society falls apart on the margins. Just look at the economy--4% unemployment is nice and healthy, 6% is a recession. 10% is a catastrophe that scars an entire generation.
I came of age in the Carter debaucle. You are right. Even in the boom years afterward I understood it could all go up in smoke. Of course that is serving me well now.
I think “Phillip” really nailed it with his surprisingly self-aware commentary--the internet basically offers a cheap simulacrum of a fulfilling human existence, and for many people (especially men) it’s just enough to ward off the pain of existence. It’s a voluntary Matrix.
It's understanding that "the pain of existence" is part of living and permits those experiences that make life ultimately worthwhile. We've mostly expunged religion and morality from our everyday life. How'd that work out?
Yes, exactly--I commented on a previous article that secularization has left the younger generations (that includes myself) completely adrift on the sea of life. Why are we here? Why bother with the struggle of living a good life? Religious traditions and institutions certainly have their flaws, but there’s a reason that the Bible is the most successful book in human history. (and I’m not even a practicing Christian)
I also thought he explained that pretty well. But those at that level of existence still know they’re losers and should hopefully still want to advance right?
That’s where you have to ask what’s rotten at the core of modern life. In the natural world, losers just die quietly. I think a crowning achievement of human civilization is the big tent: everyone has a right to not only live but to pursue their best life. Monogamy was a huge step in this direction, and I think most of the big religious traditions have some fundamental belief in the equality of mankind before God. But fewer and fewer young people practice or even learn about these religious traditions, and so it’s not surprising that more and more of them are just giving up. If there’s no deeply held conviction that a normal life is worth living, that it’s just as valuable and rewarding as the glamorous (but unattainable) one you can see on YouTube, then suicide-by-irrelevance becomes a reasonable option.
And women! Three of my four children are thankfully married with children. My eldest did forgo a few serious relationships for his career that he now regrets.
It seems to me like young women want to marry a bank account and young men someone who looks like a playmate (showing my age)!
Article one-a Your best, M. Suzi. Very thought-provoking. I'm saddened, and wish I could say I was surprised.
AFAIK, (As Far As I Know), among other things, it's a consequence of being raised by the computer-brain of social media instead of day-to-day practice of being face-to-face human. Making mistakes. Having a heart and having it broken. And Snowplowing, indeed, has a lot to do with it.
Solutions? ... Simple, but not easy. IMO, You try something different from what "everyone" is doing.
So much wisdom in your post, jt. Yes, having a heart and having it broken. The common theme is that this generation is consumed with safety (no surprise - they willingly gave up their Constitutional rights in return for illusory and non-existent safety from the Chinese virus). But life is not safe. We love. We lose. And, ultimately, we die. But in between is a beautiful journey filled with so many wonderful people and experiences. Why live in fear of that? Especially if the alternative is a life of isolation, masturbation and self-delusion. Truly sad. Self-imposed chains.
Per usual, the parents have a lot to answer for. Snowplowism. The answer? Unsupervised play.
And I believe that same unsupervised play will help these younger people in the article, too.
You either believe that life is fun, or life is a terror. (At different times.) Mostly, despite things being better than they've ever *been,* in a lotta Ways, the media still makes money by saying it's a terror. That's one reason I don't pay much, or any, attention to that crap.
Social media the worst of the worst.
I think the problem is that a lotta the Gen Zers have never known there's so much *more* out there, just like You "said."
[Phillip] "'I’m assuming these things don’t give you as much as a normal life would,' he says, 'but it stops people from hitting rock bottom. The lowest possible quality of life you can have, with the internet, is still kind of tolerable. It’s not absolutely awful. You can sort of exist in that, and there’s nothing to give you a kick up the butt because it’s not the worst thing.'"
I feel sorry for Phillip and his kind. He doesn't even realize he *has* hit rock bottom. I reread the part about how he lives. He just doesn't realize it. All it takes is a change in POV, but that's a real hard charge to make. The hardest, actually.
“Per usual, the parents have a lot to answer for. Snowplowism. The answer? Unsupervised play.”
You have no idea how much grief I took for allowing my kids to roam the woods, play on the swingset etc. without Mom looking over their shoulders. We lived in a very rural area and I’m not sure I’d have allowed it in a city but I had no problem sending the kids out to play without me.
More than one idiot castigated me for being a “bad” mother because of it.
I know multiple moms who are absolutely incredible and yet they’ve had DSS called on them for things like going into the gas station to pay while their children were in the car or letting a child sleep when their car is parked right in front of the giant window that all the adults are sitting at they all know the child is perfectly safe even the sunroof is open the shade screens are on the child is locked in a car that can only be unlocked with the key fob and even the person at the ice cream counter knows the child is there sleeping, but the parent gets DSS called on them. Someone mentioned earlier that children don’t even walk three blocks to school anymore. It’s worse than that—you can’t let your child off as a fifth grader at the front of car line where they can sit under the awning on a bench in front of the school door—not even A few minutes before The doors open and you’re sitting right there. Most of us grew up with fifth graders being the kids wearing the orange vests and helping the other kids walk across the street to school. Now they can’t even sit on the bench in front of the school five minutes before the bell rings. They have to be in their parents’ car and supervised every minute. People talk about snow plow and helicopter parents, but from the parents point of view, they’re either not giving the kid enough freedom and teaching them responsibility or they’re not doing everything for them and they’re not responsible as parents. No matter what they haven’t done everything they’re supposed to do. The parents can’t win right now.
All true. My daughter and SIL took my grandkids to Asia to keep them away from the gender and race hustlers. From what I’m told, child rearing in Asia sounds a lot like how I raised my kids.
If mine were young now. …yeah, that would be ugly.
I gathered that can happen. World's pretty insane these days, and that's just *one-a* the symptoms of it.
I never had kids, but I *was* a kid. Parents always have it pretty rough. I don't think they win until they become Grandparents. (And then they die too soon.)
One hope I'd hold out about the above is that it may hafta be a case of "choosing Your battles." Or You can make the same mistakes everyone else is making, and hope it turns out for the best. But if You're judging by *results*...
Might I suggest a charming little book by a friend of mine: An American Boyhood. My friend is Chuck Kerber. He's about 10 years older than I am (I'm 75) and grew up in what was then semi-rural western Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh. His descriptions of growing up with somewhere between minimal and no supervision are wonderful.
Chuck grew up, went to medical school, joined the Navy and hung out with the Marines as a flight surgeon. And inspired a generation--myself included--to develop an entire surgical specialty from whole cloth: neurointerventional surgery. The only snowplows he saw moved the considerable amounts of white stuff that fell from the sky in mid-century Pittsburgh winters.
You'd like Chuck's book. His parents assumed he would be safe. From time to time, he'd take the trolley into Pittsburgh and get home well after everyone had gone to sleep. No one really worried about it. It wasn't a big deal then. Now things would be different. A lot different. And nowhere nearly as good.
I enjoyed Yours and M. Horton's "conversation." Yeah, I had it lucky. Just had to be home by dinner and come in after when called to.
The shame of it is that You can have CPS on Your back if You did like that today. And that's a mistake. IMO, even in the city. From what I know, the number of child-snatchings has gone DOWN since I was a kid. But the fear-mongering *industry* would have You think the *opposite.*
This is what LITTLE I know of it, not having raised kids.
Ideally You could keep an eye on Yours and the neighbors kids while leaving them, for the most part, unsupervised. I think it's the letting them try things and fail, that makes the kids resilient. And working out the changing hierarchies within the group on their own helps as well.
As a boy back then, we were real lucky. Good chunk-a the time was doing team sports. No need for supervision. Team? I dunno the term is used much these days.
Just seen the results when these things aren't done, is all.
I m so jealous your kids had this opportunity of an unattended play. That’s how I grew up (outside of the US). but it felt impossible to replicate for the kids in the US. How old are they now? What are they up to now?
"But it seems all the would-be husbands have been left functionally castrated by porn addictions, or slaving away at a 9-to-5 trying to pay for a tiny apartment..." So now working a regular 8 hour day to support oneself is a bad thing?? I'd rather live in a tiny apartment through my own earnings than live in my parents' basement. You have to build up one's career and buying power. It doesn't happen immediately. Sounds like she doesn't value a decent, hardworking guy or understand the work and years of effort that go into living a comfortable life. No wonder she can't find any good guys.
This comment is today's internet winner! Thank you! Our grandparents went to work and complained about it, it just didn't get exposure beyond the kitchen table and maybe a neighbor or two. Now every complaint is heard and reinforced the world over by social media where delayed gratification does not exist.
Yeah, I haven't worked a 9 to 5 job ever. My job is like 8 until 6 on good days. My husband works 8 until 4 on normal days, but way over during sports seasons coaching (he is a teacher). 9 to 5 jobs are just clocking it in, doing the bare minimum. Nothing wrong with that, but 9 to 5 jobs leave more than enough time to practice relationship skills and to go out into the world and find a mate.
Yeah, that line tripped me up as well. I am guessing it was just sloppy writing, and she meant something more like "slaving away at a 60-hour/week, high stress job so they can afford a tiny apartment in a trendy neighborhood".
59 year old white male, 30 years of marriage with kids commenting...
Get out there, and meet people. Some people stink, some are great!!
This week I had to rent a car, and it came down to Avis (old school) versus Zipcar (new school). I went with Avis on price. Now that sends you to a morning counter line where you HAVE TO TALK WITH A PERSON to get a car.
The woman behind the counter was a Black woman, and she remembered me from past rentals which was years ago. She was really funny at 8 am in the morning. We exchanged some fun repartee, and guess what? She upgraded me 2 levels of car for no charge!! I am a large man and she would not put me in the smaller car!!
God bless her.
My advice - get off the phones, and go make some mistakes with real people. Correcting the mistakes is part of the fun, and people will respect you in REAL life.
Here here. Nothing like the real world. Dump the screens. Go to parties, Starbucks, the grocery store, take a cooking class, visit the freaking library or go shopping. Take a road trip and stay off the Interstates. Go to a carnival or a brewery or a vineyard or a the corner pizza joint or deli. Sheesh. This isn't rocket science.
Join a church.
And, if I may, read the darn Bible. Most of Western Civilization is based off the Hebrew Bible. Just sayin’…..
Definitely good advice for men. Also good advice for women, mostly because you can make friends with all the other single women there...
My friend's daughter at a public university attended a local Catholic church while in college. She went on a retreat with that church, met a young man who attended the same university, they began dating and will be married next summer. She's a VERY quiet girl, he's an outgoing young man. She's 1/2 Filipino, 1/2 Italian. He's 1/2 German, 1/2 Vietnamese. Find something you have in common and work from there, especially if the foundation is faith based.
Catholic churches today have VERY diverse congregations. My parish had Filipino; Indian and Latino congregants. The Universal Church does indeed exist. I encountered it in Taiqan and Korea while traveling on business
My community's residents are generally white, but of course visitors of many ethnicities. We recently hired a new music director....from the Bahamas! So excited to hear his take on the music. My parents used to spend Feb. in the Bahamas and the music at mass was phenomenal. Catholic means universal....so it makes sense.
William, a lot of posters here seem to like this church idea of yours to meet people of the opposite sex (if that phrase can still be used).
I would have been inclined to try it if I were still single, evolving away from bars or clubs - but I don't think I could handle the sermon.
you might be surprised how diverse "sermons" can be!
that said, "church" can be any place of spiritual renewal for you~ a singles camping group, for example, or a mingle at an art gallery, an alumni group of some sort often hosts socials, too!
All of this plus get involved in your community. Be a volunteer. Talk to everyone. People know other people. Join a club for whatever you're interested in--bicycling, birdwatching, reading, board games--that already gives you something in common with the other people there.
Avoid Starbucks. Its overpriced coffee sucks big time and it is run by Woke lefties.
Probably less woke than a bleeding edge coffee house actually. Although who meets people at coffee houses?
You meet people for coffee, not at the the coffee house (good thing I didn’t try that: my wife won’t touch coffee.)
Take your dog to an off-leash park. People like to chat while their doggos run and play with each other
NOOOOO. those people are crazy.. and know zero about dog behavior. do NOT go to the dog park
It depends on the dog park, but, now that I live in a smaller town, I *do* have lots of casual conversation with people when I'm walking my dogs and they're walking theirs. I'll talk to anyone, though, so I wouldn't necessarily say this is a way to get a date but it certainly makes me day more interesting.
yes it does. but having a large breed I get. oh no look at your dog trying to bite Fifi.. or Oh they are too rough. or why does he have two balls. why isnt he neutered. blah blah blah
I have a Boxer/AmStaff mix so I get the look too, until they realize she’s completely non-violent
I think one of the main points in this article is that those tactics no longer work. (Too risky for a variety of reasons that were not a concern pre-#metoo + other hazards and exaggerated fears after being shielded from risks as children, etc. .)
With #MeToo, the specific problem is it labeled "unwanted advances" as a subtype of sexual harassment.
31 year-old single guy here, and it does raise the stakes a fair bit that if you ask a girl out and she says yes, it's a date, but if she says no, certain progressives would say you've now sexually harassed her (especially since a lot of communal spaces like the office and the gym have been declared no-go zones for asking girls out to ever be appropriate).
I won't touch dating apps though because I have heard nothing positive about what they do for users' mental health.
It's sad to see so many young people have been convinced that online dating apps are the only way to meet people. That would lead to a depressing existence and feelings of hopelessness.
I've found that people who wouldn't give you a second glance on a dating app are much more amenable if you talk to them in person. There is so much more to communication that is being missed through online chatting.
I'm an old man that did his dating in the 70s/80s, and it was scary back then too. Most of my fear was of the humiliation of being turned down when approaching a female. Now, I'm sure there's still that, but much of what we considered flirting is now considered violence against females. Add to that the Title IX (which is to males what CRT is to people of European descent) threats on campus, and now you've got a generation of males who have a lot to lose when approaching females. On top of all of that, far more young people are living at home now than back in my day, which makes them less desirable as a relationship candidate.
I appreciate that females and LGBs have their own perspective, that I can't relate to, that contribute to this phenomenon as well.
Social media, #MeToo, cancel culture, Title IX and a bunch of other factors have all contributed to this, imho, and I don't know how we turn the tide.
Women went from "free sex, anytime, anywhere" to "you'd better get my written consent before every progression of physical intimacy or I'll accuse you of rape" in the blink of an eye.
I agree that fears induced by the #MeToo movement and other recent developments have eliminated many of the approaches to meeting a woman that were available to me in the 60s. To women who complain about not being able to meet a guy: As you sow, so shall you reap. To men: Join a church.
Joining a church seems like a great way to meet women in their 60s, 70s, and 80s.
20s and 30s, not so much.
My church has a number of women in their 20s and 30s. They apparently know it's a good.plwce.to find a.decent, responsible man.
Mine too! Lot's of young people attend! It's a great place to meet actually meet and hang out with people in a non-threatening environment.
My wife introduced a couple at our synagogue one Shabbat morning. That turned into a very successful relationship.
I live in a summer resort community and each week our Catholic church is packed. As I watch the communion line I see many young people. That means those young people are taking time out of their weekend visit to attend mass. My daughter and her new boyfriend came home for the weekend and attended mass (daughter is a regular mass goer) and the night before they were at a local bar. They said they brought the age down significantly (21); so young people were at mass and not so much at the bars.
Might be a healthy trend? The last thirty years have been very cynical, and fragile. Maybe it's time for a return to spirituality, whether it's in the church or other sources.
I've never been a church person, but have enjoyed solitary mushroom foraging, trout fishing, bird hunting, golfing and hiking. A therapist once asked me if I was spiritual, I answered no, as I assumed that meant Godly. After hearing of my pastimes, she proclaimed me quite spiritual.
The internet has replaced spirituality, and godamit, China, NoKo and Russia have it right to suppress it in order to not poison it's citizens.
I would imagine it has a lot to do with one's attitude toward churches, right?
TY for Your comment, Sir Jon. How to turn the tide? Dunno.
But I would suspect *part-a* it is political. Do away with the Title IX crap and the DEI administrators/judges/juries/executioners and see what happens.
The male/female ratio isn't very good. That's a *real* tough one. But it's not a show-stopper, AFAIK.
Attitudes of young men and women? The long-term solution is for them to change. Toughest row to hoe.
My lame suggestion would be for them to emulate their parent's and grandparent's *best* qualities instead-a their peer's. The young might be surprised to find there *are* some worth emulating and giving up. That's just me.
I think you're right that there's a political component. I am young enough that I still have peers and friends in the thick of dating/searching for spouses and the experiences represented in this article seem much more indicative of urban areas. In rural areas, the young seem much more interested in steady girlfriends and boyfriends, marrying young, and having families. Could be that rural areas tend to be red areas tend to value family. That and most people are out and about interacting, not squirreled away in their homes on their screens.
I have a 21 yo daughter and 20 yo son. Our daughter is dating a young man and both are dating toward the idea of marriage.....not just to date.....which I think is fabulous. I have many nieces between 27-33 and they are struggling mightily to find dates that lead to marriage....well dates at all. I do think this is generational.
TY, sc_out. I think You've got the right of it there.
One of the problems facing our youth is that they have never really had to face real-world problems. With this in mind, universal service might go a long way to solve the "attitude problem."
I think mandatory two years of military service would fix a lot of problems.
Oh! Wait a minute! You mean mandatory military or other service between high school and college? If that's it, then I say *"heck"* yeah!
That's what I mean.
I'm missed something. I agree, but dunno what this "universal service" is about. ?
Something like what Israel and Switzerland have. After high school, everyoe serves their country for 1-2 years. In these countries, it's military, but I would extend that to include all kinds of needed service - military, medical, labor, however one can serve. By extending it in this way, even the physically challenged can serve. Everybody needs a stake in America!
Yeah, I've always that that'd be a good approach. Peace Corps and Vista and the like along with the military. Yeah, a stake is right!
Is that why females outnumber males on campus 3:2?
Maybe males have caught on to the scam, that is college, before the females.
Or after years of being drugged and drilled to act like girls by a largely female education establishment, a lot of males are sick of it.
all these comments are spot on. heading into my 12 year of marriage, three kids---GET OFF THE APPS. They are not helping. This generation of western kids are addicted to apps. That's not how the majority of the world met or meets their spouses. Go volunteer. Go back to school, if it makes sense. Or at least go find a class or lecture that involves something you're interested in, and mingle. Join a sports club. A hiking club. Beer Club. A Dungeons and Dragon's club! Go meet people in person doing non-dating things so you can see what they are like. If they seem like someone you'd like to get to know better, ask them out! The worst they will say is no, then you move on and find someone new. It's hard, but completely worth it.
Or go to church? i was not a church goer, and didn't meet my wife that way, but I know a lot of people that did. It would be interesting to see the correlation between declining levels of church attendance, and the decline of marriages.
Social media is the opposite of spirituality.
that is a great suggestion! I'm jewish so it didn't come directly to mind, but I have a ton of Christian friends and they meet their friends/spouses at church. I know shuls are about meeting friends and family too; I'll also throw in mosques, temples, whatever floats your boat. But get out there. I agree, I also think declining levels of religious support in the west are definitely related to decline of marriage. Having a strong moral foundation and a community to help is critical, and if people are just stuck behind their phones on the couch, they are not getting its value.
Absolutely! We were created to be social creatures. Hiding behind a screen goes against our DNA. Churches, mosques, temples etc have opportunities to volunteer and help people in your community. But religious organizations are not the only ones who do this. The point is to get your mind off of your own problems by helping someone else with theirs. It makes you feel good when you realize that your existence can make a difference to someone else. In doing so, you form relationships with new people that can develop into something permanent.
Simple as that! (If it only *were* so simple for everyone.)
As a Catholic who returned to the church during the pandemic, I agree this is a great idea, particularly if you have kids. The church has many opportunities for kids to meet others with similar values.
This article inspired me to subscribe (after lurking for 18 months) - so thank you Suzy Weiss.
My 26 year old son will marry next month.
I admit that he was approaching Incel status pre-COVID. His family were greatly concerned for his prospects.
Almost unbelievably, during COVID, he has got a good job, graduated university, found a girlfriend, proposed marriage, and bought a house.
Strangely enough he met his fiance on Tinder......BUT.....he opened his profile with the word "Christian".
He did not want to waste time with anyone who did not share is faith. They are from different denominations (my son is devoutly Catholic), but they make it work.
I thank the Lord for the His mysterious ways.
Yay....so glad you came back to the church! I missed mass so much when we were closed for a few months. Watching it on TV is not the same....we need community.
As a "Cafeteria Catholic", it was years of not going to Mass. My Son with Autism led me back. We now have a Special Needs Mass at Blessed Sacrament in Manhattan, and my not-Catholic wife was the one that got us to all go. It is a beautiful community and it led me to some great Special Needs Housing+ projects - https://carousel51.substack.com/p/july-2020-update-for-archcare-at
Awesome!
That is exactly what I tell my single friends. Meet and get to know people of all ages and gain a supportive loving community. Salvation is great too!
Amen. Good way to initially make eye contact and eventually have a conversation. Also, you already have something in common.
Join a church.
So true. It's those day to day exchanges that make us HUMAN!
Issue of young people being lonely is runs very deep in our society. One of main reasons is that notion of family and marriage, taking next step in life with a partner has been demonized and obstructed on every corner.
For last 30 years young men are being told, that only way to measure his worth, is his net worth, and any other traditional values are worthless and useless.
Young women are told to having family and kids is nightmare from middle ages and that only way for woman to be liberated from oppressive patriarchy is to be speding 24/7 grinding in some corporate offices and to change partners more often than socks. Sadly in many cases when women realize that traditional values are not the enemy, in many cases biological clock has taken his toil.
For those, who forgoe above mentioned brainwash, they find that cards are stacked extremly against them. Buying home for young couples has become a nightmare in itself, housing is unaffordable across the country, rents are skyrocketing. Young moms in Hospitals are being called "birthing persons", further dehumanizing such important societal role.
Then daycare for children, is in some areas so expensive, that one partner has only work to pay for it.
When kids are ready for school, nightmare continues, those same forces that are telling young women not to have kids and families, for some reason are very interested in having their say what kids should learn in school (it seem that they follow old saying "get them while they are young").
Similar issues continue in university.
After seeing all this, only crazy person would want family or any kind of commitment, we have come to a situation, where all cards are stacked against young couples, while universities, social media and MSM are all yelling in one voice that any traditional values are bad.
You're not wrong, Raziel. But You imply there's no hope. I guess it's just my nature lately to choose not to believe that.
I agree with you completely, jt.
Everybody experiences hopelessness, but hopelessness is not the end of the line. Look at it, go beyond it, trial and error, one step at a time, get angry with the spiritual world and then wait for some kind of answer, take yourself on a trudging walk, be willing through clenched teeth to forgive yourself and others, and on and on... Just don't be willing to let hopelessness reign. And give yourself a sincere pat on the back. You are worth it.
TY, Anne B. Haha! Right You are. I had a hard time forgiving myself for a long while. It was *awful.*
And, as it happens, I'm listening to a CD this week that's concentrating on experiencing GRATITUDE. I got a *loooong* Way to go on it. But what gratitude does is help You become more trusting of people and the future.
This and the things You mention are *acquired* skills, AFAIK. And the way they come is by practicing them. And the first step in practice is to *try* them out, if You haven't already, right?
My German grandmother thought it worthwhile to bring up children despite living during the Nazi period. You cannot get too much of a worse time than that.
So true!
Phew. I guess that's why they're known as the Greatest Generation.
*Acquired* is the right word!
I think you have stated the problem well (I was searching for a way to do it so thank you), only I remain more optimistic. Pendulums swing and then they swing back. I think we might be due for a swing...
"When kids are ready for school, nightmare continues, those same forces that are telling young women not to have kids and families, for some reason are very interested in having their say what kids should learn in school (it seem that they follow old saying "get them while they are young")."
Yes! Then, at school your daughter will be informed that she might not even be a girl, that if she likes boys she could even be a gay boy herself! All these forces are so destructive it is hard not to feel that it is intentional, but is it? I don't know.
a lot of this true, but there is also family and plenty of sons and daughters understand and see how positive to could be.
Raziel, you’re a typical woke culture warrior sitting upon your perch of judgment, making declarations without proof to back them up. Existing in a cloister of cohort culture warriors, all sitting upon their perches, pontificating to each other, none think to question each other for fear of banishment. Your primary thesis is: that marriage and family have been demonized; where is the proof? I don’t have high expectations, but I like surprises, so please provide facts to support your thesis.
Excellent post!!
The real problem is one word: Marriage. That word is not to be found through the entire article.
Yeah, in Suzy’s last paragraph, she equated dating for him, “trying to get someone to like you, to sleep with you” — and *then*, “to be your girlfriend”— umm…
yuck
I guess I don't understand your point. No woman is going to take the huge step to a committed relationship (girlfriend) before sleeping with the guy - that's just part of evaluating basic compatibility.
My wife of eighteen years married me without that check of “basic compatibility.” “Chastity until marriage, fidelity until death” can WORK.
It certainly worked for my parents and most in their generation. The complete opposite seems not to be working... I think the attitude with which you approach dating is very important - so that when you "get" a date - what exactly do you have?
Married 35 years, and we didn't have sex until the wedding night.
I guess if the ONLY thing you're in a marriage for is the sex, you'd want a test drive. But marriage is far, far more than sex.
My own primary concern was finding a partner on the same spiritual wavelength. I had discovered during my teens that, despite most of my peers sharing the same religion, they did not all have the same feelings about spirituality. Some were fanatics. Some were constantly pushing boundaries (although not always the same ones). Some genuinely believed. Some were merely social believers. I felt that my best chance for a happy and lasting relationship was with someone who shared the same approach.
"But marriage is far, far more than sex."
Agreed. That being said, if you aren't on the same page sexually it can create huge problems in your marriage
I didn't say that couples shouldn't TALK about sex before marriage. That should definitely be as much a part of the conversation as how many kids you want, how you plan to deal with finances, what your life goals are, etc.
I don't think you can really talk about something you've never done.
Perfect
The biggest problem with our society’s “sex education” — is our society’s understanding of sex
Yikes, I really hope you’re being facetious here!!! “NO. Woman”—?!?!
Do you *know* that many women??
HELLO!
Woman here! Young, reasonably attractive…finds that attitude DISGUSTING!!
And my feeling is NOT uncommon!
The high quality women of worth and beauty exterior and interior that *I* know typically want to feel LOVED and CONNECTED WITH emotionally
(yes, sorry! A real relationship with a woman requires the development of some emotional intelligence of her particular spirit—with the expectation that you are attracted to her spirit as well as to her body),
and yes, to feel PROTECTED in her lovingness and sensitivity and yes, physical needs (because typically she may one day theoretically be vulnerably carrying and caring for your children)
BEFORE they experience physical pleasure with someone.
I.E. Physical pleasure comes for a woman usually *after* the. Love. Is affirmed at every level.
Sorry to burst your bubble so energetically. I mean it warmly.
I think someone else (like She Has Invisible Friends) is going to do a better job responding to this than I am but here I go - giving it a try.
Of course, a couple needs to be compatible but women and men are really not the same (I hear screaming from the Woke crowd) even though on an individual level people can vary from the norm of course. A single woman might have a fling but generally if she is sleeping with a man she is probably not emotionally clinically detached from him. It is more likely that the heart and body are working together on this. She's just been told that "equality" means she operates like a man and she really doesn't.
Dating is the mating dance people do prior to the huge step of marriage (public declaration that you intend to spend your life together and you have decided that you are family). And it does include sex in the modern age. Most women who are being true to themselves are not going to sleep with a bunch of men at once and then decide, gee, I will be in a girlfriend relationship with this one. Maybe men are like that and it may be why gay men who want committed relationships have an even more difficult time. I don't know. But, sure, a girl friend and a boy friend are in an exclusive relationship but not "taken" if they are single/unmarried.
{Only on the Bachelor/Bachelorette franchise!}
It's hard to get married when you can't get a date.
One thing that struck me was I know very religious people whose kids don't date, they "court". Which, in case you're not old like me, means you go out with people but you are looking for a spouse. You are not trying to "hook up" or "play the field" or whatever is the current terminology. The young people who approach it that way seem very successful because people come in with reasonable expectations.
Tall isn't very important when you are thinking you are going to spend the rest of your life with someone but kind certainly is. Shared interests and compatibility are more important than a big checkbook. I hope our younger people are able to find their way...
I have a granddaughter who is courting now. It’s a lovely sight to see 2 young people (both 23) who have decided to approach life so carefully without sex being the center. They truly want to honor God in everything they do. They were both homeschooled and this helped greatly to shape them I’m sure.
There is a lot of not great stuff that comes along with courtship culture, though. Take a look at the story around the book “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” and the fallout, if you’re not familiar with it.
Yeah the stereotype of courtship culture is "married at 18, divorced at 20"
That is popular culture's derision that you are listening to -- you're responding from the very same problematic framework which suzy is rather feebly trying to understand in the article.
In reality those marriages which are based on courtship - instead of the floundering desperation created from sexual encounter - typically last a lifetime.
As long as one's frame of reference is movies, tv, and tiktok, one will continue to fail.
See below for my experience - about 50% of courtship marriages from my evangelical friend group ended in divorce (including my own).
The people I know aren't courting at 18 because they take marriage very seriously so wait a few years before starting. I doubt there have been any studies that show the long term success of people who court versus those who do not. My guess from my admittedly small sample size is that those who court are happier in their marriage because of realistic expectations.
I think the people you know are not typical of the communities that favor courtship. We definitely took marriage seriously - in fact, as girls we were told that it was the most important thing we would ever do, that it was for life, and that if we ever divorced, we’d be permanently damaged goods. My friends typically married at 21 or so. My nephew married at 22 but his wife was 19. There are some things that are very good about a model that encourages people to treat sex as sacred and to approach relationships with marriage in mind, but I’d say that in my community at least 50% of those couples divorced within 5 years. Courtships are often very short and the couple don’t spend time alone together, so they may not know each other very well. I married very late for my community, and was divorced within 3 years.
I just don’t think courtship is the solution for what ails modern relationships. It’s the opposite end of the spectrum, and I feel like we need to land somewhere in the middle.
Dating-as-courting is built into my culture, and marriage is intended to be a permanent commitment. Most of my friends from high school and college are, in fact, still married to their original spouse. The few marriages that did end in divorce were plagued with infidelity and/or abuse.
It is a mentality, relationships are now what is desired, what would the dating scene be like
if "getting married" was how you measured you date.
It sounds like you are describing hookup culture, in which case yes, I agree with you. But many people are looking for real relationships, yet the same problem exists: the sexes have no way of meeting. In a world in which everyone can make their own rules, all rules become meaningless, and men and women no longer know how to come together. We've lost the cultural elements that used to provide this pathway... this "dance" as it were. Now men and women are afraid of each other, and neither has any confidence when it comes to dating and sex. Dating apps only exacerbate this problem.
I personally agree with you that a marriage mindset would eliminate much of the confusion, but I happen to have a marriage mindset myself, and my biggest problem isn't that women don't want a committed relationship - its that the only way to meet single women is through apps - the same apps that overwhelm women with attention and leave most men with zero attention. It's a complicated problem, linked to a shift in the guiding philosophy of society, technological innovation, and overall breakdown of community and connectedness, in my estimation.
Skip the apps. Interact in the real world. Make eye contact. Smile. Be kind (not gullible, kind). All of this builds confidence and there is nothing sexier than confidence.
Ok, James, I see, i think you were writing above from a standpoint of… frustration or hopelessness. You’re very right on point. So a friend and I were discussing this and the only key we can see is, besides returning to God and establishing that relationship with Him first (or deepening it) personally and as a norm in society, is to be the new “normal” that you want others to be.
Be friendly, warm, interact with strangers of ALL types without pretense and without ulterior motive. Care for all types. Let women see the value of you— and that doesn’t mean you get trapped in the “friend zone”— you can retain a masculine mystery to the ladies too— women want to see a man who cares for ALL TYPES OF PEOPLE. :) The art of the heart.
Good advice. I always paid attention to how the guy was with others - not just with me.
It is a problem that we have an "overall breakdown of community and connectedness" as James says. I'm grateful that I wouldn't know how to go on a dating app. Still, I don't remember it all being particularly easy. There must be clubs to join? Biking? Volunteering? "After work" this and that at the museum or what-have-you? Alumni events?
LM - long married woman with almost grown kids - one a recovering ROGD & I'm bothered as H* about Radical Gender Ideology and "affirmation" (the next thing to deal with if you achieve family of your own).
Yes, we are a long way away from young people meeting at the weekend church dances.
My 21 yo daughter is in her first real relationship with a 22 yo man are dating toward marriage. She was never interested in dating for dating sake and neither is he. They speak about the future when the converse; like how many kids would you want, what would you name a dog, etc. There are no plans yet as they finish college but the security, respect and responsibility they share will take them a long way toward a marriage covenant.
I agree! One does not have to marry but for most people in most cases that is supposed to be the healthy set up/respectful end goal of dating. Maybe the first tries don't work out but that's the framework. Throw that away as a society and no wonder so many are unhappy.
The word "husband" is in there. Close to the top.
I think Shane would be better off if he could be happy first with himself. No relationship is going to bring him that which comes from within. If he's looking for a soulmate (which is a totally BS word that someone made up 25 years ago), he would do well to be his own soulmate. No relationship is going to "complete" him.
I would tell Jeff to, yes, do exactly that. Walk up to a strange woman in a grocery store and say "Oh, you're buying bananas too?" He'll know in about three seconds whether she's interested or not. If she's not, and if he has anything approximating what could be described as half a brain, he'll know and take his leave before the concern about creepiness kicks in. I would argue further that the point is the asking, not the getting the date, which is pure gravy. Would his results be any worse? Asking a woman for a date in person is way more riskier than sitting on the couch in one's shorts swiping left. Or is it right? Some young people weren't even allowed the risk of walking three and a half blocks to grade school, so asking a girl out can be pretty scary. I get it.
As to being hurt or getting one's heart broken? What healthy person hasn't had that experience? It's a part of life. So put your big boy pants on and man up:
"Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all".
Shane needs to get the F off Reddit. Hearing the opinions of thousands of strangers you'll never meet exacerbates insecurities about physical appearance and mistakenly magnifies its importance. Shorter men have been dating and getting married and having children forever. Do they have a harder time? Absolutely. It's one of the few preferences women have that are pretty universal. But as he says, it is what it is and he can't change it, and he is working hard at the gym to be the best version of himself that he can be. In the real world, that has to be enough, and wallowing in Reddit prejudice is shooting yourself in the foot. I know this from personal experience, I did this to myself for 4 years and it did not serve me. Since I quit Reddit at the beginning of this year, my mental health is greatly improved.
Shorter men can ALWAYS find beautiful ladies even shorter… there are ZILLIONS of adorable petite couples. Taller ladies have as hard a time finding someone kind who is also attractive to THEM. Everyone has their own problems…
Yup, kick Reddit to the curb! I’m down to just IG now and couldn’t be happier!
"Jeff" is 5'4 bald, 250 lbs, has been on xxxvideo daily and is looking for a supermodel. I dont think it would work but it's worth a try.
Actually I think “Jeff” could try practicing first, by walking up to *anyone* and having a pleasant conversation about nothing. So few people can converse with strangers about common banalities anymore. You become a lot more “normal” to attractive people if you are comfortable meeting all types of people.
It’s curious how few GenZs have the skill of ‘small talk’ with the strangers we meet in everyday life. As a member of GenX, it seems the ‘gift of the gab’ is something we all learned quite well. It’s also something that I quite enjoy, and helps to make me feel connected to others.
I lived in NYC for many, many years. And being a walker in a walking city, I don't think a day or two passed without having a one or two or three minute conversation with a total stranger. One such encounter resulted in four dates. Another resulted in a twelve year monogamous relationship that began in yes, you guessed it, a supermarket.
We’ll said. Just go out into the world and meet other interesting people without any pretense. If one’s underlying motive is to get laid, get a date, or sell Amway products, people usually sense that. Be genuine and just talk to people.
You said it: the MOTIVE is what separates a self-interested creeper from a caring, attractive individual interested in all others, worth smiling back at and getting to know as a person.
I agree, Shane needs to be happy with himself first. I went to Penn State, there are 40,000 kids on campus with plenty of opportunity to find a suitable mate.
Bravo! Brilliant!
Conversations are a gift; they become magical when they are about nothing and have no other purpose than the conversation itself. Too often, it seems, we want to assign purpose to everything but the truth is not all connections or conversations need to be anything other than just enjoyable. I speak to people in stores or in bars not because they have something I want or because I want to have a sexual relationship but simply because it is social and, yes, it is connective. Many, if not most, of the people I end up briefly talking to I will never see again and if I do I nod in acknowledgment of recognizing them and say hello and that's it.
It feels as though we have somehow made relationships commodities and confused their value with purpose instead of appreciating their simple existence.
Commodities indeed. I'm a blabbermouth and love to chat to anyone, when I moved to the UK from Canada it was a real culture shock, there's no interaction with everyday people in London, not the culture. Not even smiling or looking someone in the eyes! I couldn't take it anymore and moved to Rio de Janeiro where Brazilian culture is one where strangers greet each other on the street and spontaneous conversations happen non-stop, I love it! I found my heaven of conversation and chatting and it enriches life so very much. No surprise after being single for very long I met my husband here. Cultural differences are huge part of all this. The art of conversation is dying and nobody appreciates a good exchange about nothing with a fellow citizen.
I see it, I am from Texas, but visit Scotland for bidness fairly often. When I’m in Glasgow, and maybe smile at someone and ask how they’re doing - I get looked at like a psychopath. The pandemic hasn’t helped with loddydoddy and everbody masked up, but what is considered normal here ain’t there.
A beautiful sorry! I would have died in a place with no eye contact and a casual
chat as well. Did you learn Portuguese? While already in Brazil? Or before? Or you get by with English.
When my 11 year old started having a serious depression after all the covid lockdowns, my dear friend called me and immediately said: move to Brazil!
I also recommend moving to Brazil to cure depression, worked for me! I fell in love with the language so it was a pleasure to learn it here, you can't get by in English at all. I was already bilingual (French) but being fully immersed with a strong desire to learn the language made it easy. I started a completely new life, new career, new everything and have never looked back. Being brave and making big changes is exhilarating and fulfilling although I appreciate not always possible for everyone, but for more people than you would think!
Well, I m in immigrant. I know how it feels. :) this wouldn’t be the first bold move for me. And I already speak four languages. But now it’s about the entire family and kids… I ought to take this responsibility for three more people.
"It feels as though we have somehow made relationships commodities..."
That's the whole *PURPOSE* of social media and these dating apps. To make what-i-call "pretend" relationships. To make that addictive. And then to *monetize* it. And if they can find a way to make *more* money selling this commodity, You can be sure it'll be tried.
And so it goes. Until One gets off the merry-go-round...
Yes. And because everyone has worth and a story to tell and sometimes they are interesting and fascinating and your day is enriched beyond measure as a result.
My mother and father flew a lot for business and leisure. My mom will talk to ANYONE and I've picked up that (good) habit. On one trip she began talking to a woman and learned the story of the woman being a Holocaust survivor. My mother kept in touch with her until she died. My mom also met a flight attendant and still keeps in touch with her. It's amazing how we can tough others' lives and enrich our own by asking questions and listening!
^^ this. Excellent observation.
Get a puppy!
Then take it — not your earbuds and iPhone — for a walk.
I know of a beautiful young woman who some day wants a large family, something north of 1.6 kids. She’s used multiple sites, including Christian Mingle. Inevitably, the budding relationships come down to “the talk.”
This woman is traditional. Sex is special, not something you toss out. She wants to wait, ideally till marriage. If not then, at least until she and he are committed to something more than a common interest in craft beers. This is an intelligent, funny, educated woman who teaches little kids, loves baseball, good books, music, board games, politics, cooking, and people. She wants a mate, not a hookup. Needless to say, she’s still very single.
We, the Boomers and beyond, have destroyed every institution that made long-term, monogamous relationships something to be desired and nurtured. Marriage. Church. Family. Friendship. Community. Schools. All have been damaged (irreparably?) or rejiggered into machines that pump out robotic narcissists. I’ve heard one sage man say our world is now a billion little bubbles of Ego. They collide and burst because no one can understand why the other can’t or won’t do things his or her way. That old “my way or the highway” thing.
There is a way to fix this. Relegate technology to its rightful role of servant not master. Recognized you’re going to get hurt. (But, hey, the way I see it, the current system, like an opiate, is destroying you.) Then get out and meet your future face to face.
Get a puppy!
My dad used to say every man should train a dog before having kids.
🤔
I agree with your dad. I spent my middle school years studying dogs behavior and training techniques. Since then after all the degrees etc, I often think that was the most useful use of my time and academic concentration… 😊
Dogs and monkeys are very different animals.
True. But the patience, diligence and other-over-self qualities required to train a dog to retrieve or whatever come in handy with kids.
It's funny, but I got my first puppy almost two years ago at the ripe old age of 43. I already have the husband, the house, the kids, the career. I just wanted the puppy, lol. However, walking her and bringing out and about has been eye opening. I have met and had nice conversations with all sorts of people I never would have spoken to before. Plus, anyone who doesn't think my dog is cute is not worth my time. Since all this started, I couldn't help but think that having a dog must be a great way to meet people. I love my husband, but I bet I could have found him earlier if I had the dog in my single years. Best advice ever is to get a puppy!!
Great advice, assuming people will be responsible and commit to having a dog and not just get bored and dump the dog in the shelter after a year.
I can’t count the number of conversations we’ve had with people just because we had our dog with us. A cute dog is definitely an entry point to meeting all kinds of people out in meatspace.
All of those end with me insisting no, they do *not* want a Siberian.
All dogs need attention but Sibes are a universe unto themselves and most people simply will not put in the time required to have a healthy, well behaved Sibe.
“The people are unhappy, the dog is unhappy and it doesn’t end well. DON’T DO IT TO THE DOG OR YOURSELF!”
Yeah, we, the Siberians are moody cuz we got Dostoevsky in our bones. 🤣🤣I m just kidding.
Russians rarely agree on anything between themselves, but one thing seems to have an overwhelming agreement among all Russians: the Siberians (the people), are special.
Have you ever read “With God in Russia”? Gave me a deep personal connection with Siberia spiritually because the hero is from my mom’s native corner!
No, I haven’t. I have never heard of him and just looked him up. His is one of the millions tragic fates in that area at those times. I was born in the USSR and I was twelve years old when it collapsed. That’s when numerous memories like Cizchek’s poured from the pages of mass media into our lives and people started opening up..
My husband was born in Tadzhikistan, the Muslim Soviet republic next to Afghanistan. His neighbor was an elderly lady who spoke perfect English. She taught him since his early childhood in the end of 1960s-early 1970s. She was the wife of the “enemy of the people” that was an oficial Soviet label for relatives of those who were sent to Gulag. Those relatives were not allowed to settle in major cities or take important positions, only the simplest of jobs. Aand they were sent to the outskirts of the USSR. Her case was particularly hard cause her husband was a Brit who believed in communists. She lived with him in UK until he decided to come to USSR to build communism. He ended up in Gulag. She - in Tadzhikistan. I don’t think they ever saw each other again. I often think of her because she gave my husband a gift of perfect English while he was a simple Soviet child and an enormous competitive advantage when he arrived to the US in 1989. But I haven’t ever heard of Ciczek. Bless his soul….
Wowwww… These are stories we all NEED to hear… every American school kid saw presentations from survivors of Nazi horror camps, and Hollywood made dozens of excellent movies to warn us about them…but NO ONE educated us— about as much as YOU were!!!— on the horrors of Communism!! So today we have millions of young, overeducated for their intelligence lunatics, fighting for a nightmare they think is a romantic dream, egged on by ignoramus academics who never lived in the real world. WE NEED TO HEAR YOUR STORIES.
Yeah, I remember Fr. Ciszek wrote how he was barred from moving here or there after his release (forget about returning to the US, his family thought he was dead) But he had a blessed happy ending— after 23 years he was swapped for spies and returned home— he was to be President JFK’s next appointment upon his unfated return from Dallas in 1963— a gift for us because the memoirs he wrote have blessed millions with the spiritual fruits he reaped from his tremendous suffering and apparent abandonment by God (he never was, actually).
Please read his books… he is going to be a saint one day… his writings awakened in my soul a deeper love for God in my own sufferings. God bless you!! Thank you for sharing. I can imagine hearing these stories would give horrible pain for those who lived there among them.
Yeah, that is a good point. I have a Newfoundland which is a definite huge commitment. I would amend my advice to get a puppy, but research well and get the type of puppy that best fits your lifestyle and your capabilities of care. Even researching to find the best type of puppy can totally be a way to meet people, too
I'm so glad I missed the dating apps by a few years. I met my wife in a bar the old fashioned way. I told that to my Gen Z co-workers and their jaws dropped like I was from another planet. It was never easy working up the courage to meet people but it sure beats swiping and waiting and dwelling.
"I met my wife in a bar the old fashioned way."
Same here. A Saturday night fifty three years ago at Lucifer's in Boston. That's the way we used to do it. There were bands, dancing, booze, and women who wanted to meet men. You met people face to face in those days. Life was fun. We've been married 51 years, and I've never had any second thoughts or regrets about it.
17 years ago for us. We met the day I came home from a deployment
Granted I am older than dirt but when I read that Shane was 20 and hadn't had sex, I thought - I really am out of it. Most men I knew at 20 were far more worried about being sent to Vietnam than about their lack of sex.
One suggestion for young men from this oldie. Get over yourself: learn how to really listen to a woman without wondering when and if you will bed her .I don't know a woman of any age who doesn't stay away from those types. Develop a sense of humor which is far more important than how tall you are.. Get off Tinder get out of the basement, buy a backpack and start traveling. You will meet a lot more interesting people and will have experiences that will open up YOUR horizons and make YOU a far more interesting person.
It is easy and no doubt legitimate to blame snowplow parents for your plight. But you have no one to blame but yourself if you find yourself in your 20's watching porn all day and sitting in a basement moaning and groaning about how mean the world is to you . The world has always been a mean place - learning how to cope with that is what growing up is all about. . :
I wonder how all these people who can’t handle interpersonal disappointments will manage professional disappointments?
Not well I’d imagine.
I love your comment...🙂
Ahmen brother.
#MeToo. I don't remember the day of the week, but the bar was a place called Suds. Madison Slim and the Nightcrawlers were on the stage.
My son (26) recently explained why he has trouble dating.
Hookup culture rules the day; the ladies just disappear, and that includes actual friends of friends, which is his only dating pool. They simply say, up front, they’re never interested in actually dating.
He and his friends get creeped on social media and that’s a disturbing tale: if they are dating they get endless crap for anything that appears on their Instagram feed. One example was looking at any other girl’s post at all, another was what news item they’ve viewed.
Now that all comes after college, where the men’s sports team was required to watch a shockingly anti-male Title IX video featuring, among other things, examples of overtly inappropriate sexual harassment and clear warnings that they’ll be expelled instantly on the first complaint with no warning or recourse.
More broadly, my son has found that nearly all young women are, to him, immature, specifically they cannot hold a conversation about much of anything. Some openly say they’ll only hook up with GFs to avoid “toxic” males. (That really shocked me)
So you’ve written an excellent article (as usual) but missed all of that.
Maybe it is geographic, maybe just by accident, but find a few kids who aren’t dysfunctional, scared or just insecure and see what they’ve noticed.
Social media is a catastrophe for young adults.
Only hook up with Gluten Frees?
LOL miles
Seriously, the parents on this page could become effective matchmakers. Send five questions to the prospective daters and get them to talk. There are a lot of great girls looking for great guys. We need to figure out how to help them find each other.
The total fertility rate (TFR) is the number of children the average woman has in her reproductive lifetime. It needs to be a bare minimum of 2.1 for a civilization to survive. The TFR in the US today is around 1.6 and dropping. Sub replacement TFRs are becoming the norm around the world.
It appears that modernity is not a viable civilizational norm.
Don’t worry some of us have three or four to keep up haha. I love my babies. In all seriousness I realize that a small portion of the population that has more kids won’t totally outweigh the majority who are not, but I think the kids of the small portion will have seen a larger family modeled to them.
I am not worried about American TFR. We are the richest country in the world and have a long history of immigration: young and bright people world over would want to come to our country and become great American citizens.
It's just a phase where the elites have jammed up our minds with Xenophobia for political gain. That too shall pass like it did in our history.
I agree, we in the US will be fine. Our country is a desirable target for immigrants and our population density is still quite low. I, for one, would like to see us accept a lot more immigrants than we do.
And yet, as a solution to collapsing fertility rates immigration is clearly not going to work. Immigration is zero sum: If we gain someone else loses.
To Linus and Stephen, this an interesting observation about the US still being attractive to young and bright people world over.. I am an immigrant, I have been in California for 20 years and all this time I have been surrounded by other immigrants and I see the enthusiasm over the US cooling off in our circles. Let me share a couple of stories here. They do look like anecdotal evidences, but they also somewhat highlight an overall mood in the professional immigration circles here, in the Silicon Valley and beyond.
A client of mine, an MD from New Jersey was brought here from Russia in the early 1990s. She went to high school and got her degree in the US and worked here for a number of years. In 2019 while in her mid 30s, she went to her native Krasnoyarsk for a year of sabbatical with her husband and two kids and they haven’t been back to the US since. She says she doesn’t want to; mainly because of the kids. She is concerned about the suffocating children vaccinations requirement (she is an MD), and an overall climate in the US.
A fellow mom from the German school here in the Silicon Valley made a decision to move back to Berlin after her two kids were walking home from the train station and police car stopped them and drove them home giving parents a warning of the unsafe behavior. This happened in Mt.View, in the heart of the Silicon Valley, couple of miles away from Google HQ. It was a ten minute walk through a lively downtown and the kids were 7 and 9 years old. The fact that such situation can be considered “unsafe” is insane for Europeans. Her husband was on an “O” Visa at Google, it’s a “special abilities” visa, granted to highly skilled professionals with unique skillset and it is easily transferred into Green Card. They abandoned their Green Cards and went back to Germany citing better environment for kids.
.
Another friend of mine here in the Silicon Valley is from Crimea (Russia-Ukraine-Russia-Rinse-Repeat). She and her husband are US citizens and their three kids were born in California. Every summer she spends in the Crimea. She flew her brood to the Crimea this summer as well, while the war is in progress. She just came back, kids had wonderful time over there making friends and exploring surroundings unattended. She is certain she will get her kids out of California and preferably from the US and will not allow their puberty years to be spent here. Her husband, who is a Russian immigrant as well, works at Apple and is concerned that he won’t find a good position in Europe, let alone in Russia. There are tensions about it between the two of them, but she is determined to take her children away from the US at least during their formative puberty years.
.
I myself am frantically looking for ways to move my California born kids out of the Silicon Valley into a healthier and less robotic environments. I consider Italy, Eastern Europe or Brazil, given that Russia and Ukraine are no options for us right now.
.
These stories do sound like anecdotal evidences. Yet, they also highlight an overall mood in the immigrant circles, at least in the post-Soviet and in the European professional immigration that I am exposed to. These are all people with advanced degrees and highly paid positions in the leading, global companies, who once viewed the US as a very attractive destination.
I think that right now the US to professional immigrants is what Ivy League school to the high school age kids parents. The momentum is still there, the admissions into the Ivy League schools are still sought after, but some serious exodus has begun and this exodus includes the most independent, daring minds, that America has historically prided itself for.
The risk that these schools will loose their appeal to the brightest minds out there is serious. And so is the US attractiveness to the professional immigration. Truth is, it mainly applies to Europeans. Chinese and Indian immigrants here, in the Silicon Valley seem to be thriving due to their higher numbers and their own, more insulated cultures; they do not seek to merge with the Americans, the way Europeans and Post-Soviet tend to seek. This is fine, but it may draw a very different cultural landscape.
I will be happy to be wrong and to see that this is a short phase and that in the next couple of years it will be over and my concerns turn out to be a mere paranoia as we all merge into some beautiful, multi-faceted melting pot. However, with the dynamic right now, I am forced to spend my energy to find a better place for my kids outside of the US, because the tragic wisdom of my native Russia has taught me that “a phase” can last a life-time of a generation. Or two.
Fertility levels are dropping greatly throughout the rest of the world as well. Not to mention, but too much immigration too fast is destabalizing.
On the plus side, the world does seem a bit over populated.
Naw. That's just a POV (Point of View) that emphasized de-growth. There isn't much inherently a problem with the current population.
And, practically speaking, are *YOU* gonna be the one to tell the third world countries their population can't grow any more? Even if You *are,* do You think You'll be heeded?
It seems that way to those who have the luxury of living in opulence. In reality population decline is the biggest threat humanity faces.
You've obviously never been to Alaska.
"On the plus side, the world does seem a bit over populated."
agreed, but our entitlement programs require an expanding population.
"Sub replacement TFRs are becoming the norm around the world." They are becoming the norm in the "advanced" world, the west, plus Japan, S. Korea, etc. (China too, but for very different reasons). Not at all the norm in Africa, L. America, M. East, much of Asia... The totally messed-up, ideologized, alienated, post-human part of the world we inhabit is not "the world." Thank God. And by the way, when we think about a foreign policy where we are "spreading our values," this sort of totally messed-up, nightmarish, social dystopia is what we are pushing on the rest of the world. No wonder some will fight to the death to avoid our "largesse," the 'blessings of liberty', etc.
Actually, declining fertility is more widespread than you may suppose.
<iframe src="https://data.worldbank.org/share/widget?end=2020&indicators=SP.DYN.TFRT.IN&start=1960&view=chart" width='450' height='300' frameBorder='0' scrolling="no" ></iframe>
Fertility rates are very rampant even in developing nations. The primary distinction is the city versus country. Generally Rural areas have high fertility rates, metros have negative rates. Compare Mexico fertility rate to that of Mexico City for example.
Actually fertility in Mexico is already below replacement.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/children-per-woman-UN?tab=chart&time=1950..latest&country=OWID_WRL~MEX
My how things are rapidly changing. Thank you
Right as rain, M. Bill.
You're right. As currently envisioned, it's not.
I have absolutely no issue with anything in this piece, but I do note a very persistent pattern on the subject. It starts out as a perspective about the state of being a modern young woman ("why are my peers lonelier...") but as always seems to be the case, the primary focus is on the shortcomings of men. Not a single female is profiled. Again, I have no argument with the points made here and I am very glad that I missed the modern state of things, but I would like someone of Suzy's honesty and writing ability to discuss what might be the female contribution to all the dysfunction.
If you read my comment above that’s the perspective of a 26 year-old, my son, on women.
What the author does highlight is young men differing from anxieties I couldn’t have imagined existed in young men -- and those are sad.
"It starts out as a perspective about the state of being a modern young woman ("why are my peers lonelier...") but as always seems to be the case, the primary focus is on the shortcomings of men."
Yep, I see this here, on unherd, and other publications.
I hadn't considered it before, but you're right. Seems I've seen quite a few articles like this and they're all presented the same way. They are always a profile of troubled young men.
Yes, and what MEN need to do to satisfy women's needs, desires or requirements, as if they are tired of waiting for us to meet all these things.
Agreed!!! Certainly hasn't happened yet.
I feel sad for the young adults of today.
Social media has exacerbated the notion that "perfection" is the only answer when it comes to relationships. It's sort of like the old high school thought process where every girl desires the captain of the football team, and every guy wants the head cheerleader -- except on steroids.
I have an acquaintance who teaches at the college level. Her observation is that sweet, decent kids (especially girls) are so driven by social media to seek out perfection that they ignore the sweet, decent guys sitting next to them in the classroom. She sees this happening at all levels, from middle school through grad school.
Now add in the social pressures promoting a hook-up culture, and the thought process spewed by mass media that long-term relationships and marriage are bad, and the result is a decline in society that's becoming increasingly evident.
Exactly this. 90% of people are trying to date the top 10% most desirable matches, and I have to think that it is because those 10% are easily accessible to everyone on dating apps. It seems like this has really skewed people’s preferences and behavior.
That mostly affects women, statistically. There was a recent study which analyzed the differences between male and female behavior on Tinder. The study demonstrated the men liked 61.9% of women on Tinder and women liked 4.5% of men on Tinder.
Those 4.5% of men end up with something of a feeding frenzy on their hands, so they can date multiple women at a time and ghost girls they get tired of. Those girls getting cheated on and ghosted tend to wind up pretty resentful of men in general.
Wow. That resonates so well with the experience of my gorgeous Lawyer niece. She is now 35 and has finally settled with a divorced father of two. After so many years of dating and being cheated on she started looking in a different pool.
(And they met, by chance, waiting to be seated at a restaurant).
In my teens I consumed a considerable amount of science fiction. A staple was the scenario where a new disease, a new technology such as nuclear weapons, a death ray, or a novel social order - think "Atlas Shrugged" - threatens to wipe out humanity, or worse reduce the Average Man to brain-dead servitude. As we head into the new fall and winter of short, cold days, I cannot escape a certain unease - a feeling that the world is careening out of control - a hellbound train locked on the rails, and that the attacks are coming from so many directions that one doesn't know which threat to fight first.
The traditional Battle of the Sexes, long the subject of comedy, is to my eye not funny anymore. I've had a little brush with it myself, and given the current social - and more importantly, legal - climate, I could not recommend marriage to any young man. Your spouse gets her panties in a wad, and bang! - no-fault divorces are trivially easy; all the prior obstacles to divorce which kept families together during the inevitable rough patches are gone. Fifty percent of first marriages fail, 65% of second, 75% of third, and if you have children - given the "family law" courts' proclivities - you have just locked yourself into supporting someone you don't like for decades, relegated to seeing your own children one evening every other week, maybe living out of your car or jailed for being a "deadbeat dad." Deadbeat? Really, or just broke? Date - or especially marry - an American woman? These days you'd have to be out of your mind.
No, the infiltration of the West's traditions and institutions by socialist/communist soreheads bent on its destruction is nearly complete. Our enemies have figured out how to use our own freedoms against us - as they said they would. Clearly the whole issue is in question. I believe we are in one of those eras that humanity brings upon itself regularly: fight for everything you are worth, or succumb. And if you must succumb, save the last bullet for yourself.
Leaving aside the socialist/communist infiltration for a moment, which may or may not be having a significant effect on dating, what you wrote about the pitfalls of marriage is definitely true.
I am divorced, and it is financially devastating. I could be living well and getting ready for retirement if I had married better (or maybe if my ex wife had?). Instead, retirement is a far off dream, if it is possible at all, and I am watching half of my net pay go out the door every year with the resulting effect on my quality of life.
I laughed at the comedians who joked about losing half their money, but it isn’t funny anymore. I guess I can tell my own son that he would have to be crazy to marry someone who doesn’t have his/her own career. My own father didn’t have this problem, but he was luckier. He grew up in a different time and he chose better.
Despite this, I know I could have been far unluckier. My ex accused me of abusing our son and tried to get sole custody when we divorced, but it didn’t work. Our son is still in my life, and I am thankful for that every day. I personally know at least five men who got divorced and lost their children. As bad as I feel for being forced to give away half my money to a person I truly dislike, it doesn’t come close to the pain these other men feel.
Honestly, why there are not more murders committed by devastated, despondent fathers with nothing to lose is beyond me. Perhaps it's because of their children. As I discovered later, my second wife had an agenda from day one - hypergamy - marrying up to gain access to resources. (Friends never tell you anything until it's so late in the game that it doesn't matter. And here I always thought she wanted me for my scintillating engineer's personality....) The moment she refused to sign a prenup is the day I should have showed her the door. Fortunately we never had any children; she wanted to do so badly, but despite my refusal, of course she "found herself pregnant." Also fortunately, she was too old, with too little hormones, to carry to term. I'm sure a lot smarter now. Just have to educate my sons, although we all know what has no conscience - or brains.
Mine also wouldn’t sign a prenup, and like you, I should have known then and shown her the door. There were a lot of other warning signs. As they say, I saw the red flags and thought it was the circus. The reality distortion field of being in love is powerful.
They say fentanyl is powerful. It's sugar-water compared to oxytocin. At least with fentanyl you die quickly.
No quite the implication he states. Why not ask a question to clarify rather than be a jerk?
In context, he is clearly talking about marriage and divorce, not his children. Yeesh!
I imagine most parents would prefer to be the one receiving those cheques to sending them.
There are definitely young people who are thriving, have healthy relationships and get married. Every generation has their economic challenges. What we’re pushing is that because those challenges are there better not to do anything and give up. I couldn’t buy a house when I first got married but we managed after a few years.
This is an interesting and incredibly sad article but not every young person is locked in their parent’s basement.
Society falls apart on the margins. Just look at the economy--4% unemployment is nice and healthy, 6% is a recession. 10% is a catastrophe that scars an entire generation.
I came of age in the Carter debaucle. You are right. Even in the boom years afterward I understood it could all go up in smoke. Of course that is serving me well now.
Good to "hear."
I think “Phillip” really nailed it with his surprisingly self-aware commentary--the internet basically offers a cheap simulacrum of a fulfilling human existence, and for many people (especially men) it’s just enough to ward off the pain of existence. It’s a voluntary Matrix.
It's understanding that "the pain of existence" is part of living and permits those experiences that make life ultimately worthwhile. We've mostly expunged religion and morality from our everyday life. How'd that work out?
Yes, exactly--I commented on a previous article that secularization has left the younger generations (that includes myself) completely adrift on the sea of life. Why are we here? Why bother with the struggle of living a good life? Religious traditions and institutions certainly have their flaws, but there’s a reason that the Bible is the most successful book in human history. (and I’m not even a practicing Christian)
I also thought he explained that pretty well. But those at that level of existence still know they’re losers and should hopefully still want to advance right?
That’s where you have to ask what’s rotten at the core of modern life. In the natural world, losers just die quietly. I think a crowning achievement of human civilization is the big tent: everyone has a right to not only live but to pursue their best life. Monogamy was a huge step in this direction, and I think most of the big religious traditions have some fundamental belief in the equality of mankind before God. But fewer and fewer young people practice or even learn about these religious traditions, and so it’s not surprising that more and more of them are just giving up. If there’s no deeply held conviction that a normal life is worth living, that it’s just as valuable and rewarding as the glamorous (but unattainable) one you can see on YouTube, then suicide-by-irrelevance becomes a reasonable option.
"...suicide-by-irrelevance..." Powerful phrase...very apt for the lives of quiet self-ignominy these men appear to be "living".
And women! Three of my four children are thankfully married with children. My eldest did forgo a few serious relationships for his career that he now regrets.
It seems to me like young women want to marry a bank account and young men someone who looks like a playmate (showing my age)!
Article one-a Your best, M. Suzi. Very thought-provoking. I'm saddened, and wish I could say I was surprised.
AFAIK, (As Far As I Know), among other things, it's a consequence of being raised by the computer-brain of social media instead of day-to-day practice of being face-to-face human. Making mistakes. Having a heart and having it broken. And Snowplowing, indeed, has a lot to do with it.
Solutions? ... Simple, but not easy. IMO, You try something different from what "everyone" is doing.
TY again, Ma'am.
So much wisdom in your post, jt. Yes, having a heart and having it broken. The common theme is that this generation is consumed with safety (no surprise - they willingly gave up their Constitutional rights in return for illusory and non-existent safety from the Chinese virus). But life is not safe. We love. We lose. And, ultimately, we die. But in between is a beautiful journey filled with so many wonderful people and experiences. Why live in fear of that? Especially if the alternative is a life of isolation, masturbation and self-delusion. Truly sad. Self-imposed chains.
Thank You. You're so right, Sir Bruce.
Per usual, the parents have a lot to answer for. Snowplowism. The answer? Unsupervised play.
And I believe that same unsupervised play will help these younger people in the article, too.
You either believe that life is fun, or life is a terror. (At different times.) Mostly, despite things being better than they've ever *been,* in a lotta Ways, the media still makes money by saying it's a terror. That's one reason I don't pay much, or any, attention to that crap.
Social media the worst of the worst.
I think the problem is that a lotta the Gen Zers have never known there's so much *more* out there, just like You "said."
[Phillip] "'I’m assuming these things don’t give you as much as a normal life would,' he says, 'but it stops people from hitting rock bottom. The lowest possible quality of life you can have, with the internet, is still kind of tolerable. It’s not absolutely awful. You can sort of exist in that, and there’s nothing to give you a kick up the butt because it’s not the worst thing.'"
I feel sorry for Phillip and his kind. He doesn't even realize he *has* hit rock bottom. I reread the part about how he lives. He just doesn't realize it. All it takes is a change in POV, but that's a real hard charge to make. The hardest, actually.
TYTY again. Great to "hear" from Ya.
“Per usual, the parents have a lot to answer for. Snowplowism. The answer? Unsupervised play.”
You have no idea how much grief I took for allowing my kids to roam the woods, play on the swingset etc. without Mom looking over their shoulders. We lived in a very rural area and I’m not sure I’d have allowed it in a city but I had no problem sending the kids out to play without me.
More than one idiot castigated me for being a “bad” mother because of it.
I know multiple moms who are absolutely incredible and yet they’ve had DSS called on them for things like going into the gas station to pay while their children were in the car or letting a child sleep when their car is parked right in front of the giant window that all the adults are sitting at they all know the child is perfectly safe even the sunroof is open the shade screens are on the child is locked in a car that can only be unlocked with the key fob and even the person at the ice cream counter knows the child is there sleeping, but the parent gets DSS called on them. Someone mentioned earlier that children don’t even walk three blocks to school anymore. It’s worse than that—you can’t let your child off as a fifth grader at the front of car line where they can sit under the awning on a bench in front of the school door—not even A few minutes before The doors open and you’re sitting right there. Most of us grew up with fifth graders being the kids wearing the orange vests and helping the other kids walk across the street to school. Now they can’t even sit on the bench in front of the school five minutes before the bell rings. They have to be in their parents’ car and supervised every minute. People talk about snow plow and helicopter parents, but from the parents point of view, they’re either not giving the kid enough freedom and teaching them responsibility or they’re not doing everything for them and they’re not responsible as parents. No matter what they haven’t done everything they’re supposed to do. The parents can’t win right now.
All true. My daughter and SIL took my grandkids to Asia to keep them away from the gender and race hustlers. From what I’m told, child rearing in Asia sounds a lot like how I raised my kids.
If mine were young now. …yeah, that would be ugly.
I gathered that can happen. World's pretty insane these days, and that's just *one-a* the symptoms of it.
I never had kids, but I *was* a kid. Parents always have it pretty rough. I don't think they win until they become Grandparents. (And then they die too soon.)
One hope I'd hold out about the above is that it may hafta be a case of "choosing Your battles." Or You can make the same mistakes everyone else is making, and hope it turns out for the best. But if You're judging by *results*...
Might I suggest a charming little book by a friend of mine: An American Boyhood. My friend is Chuck Kerber. He's about 10 years older than I am (I'm 75) and grew up in what was then semi-rural western Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh. His descriptions of growing up with somewhere between minimal and no supervision are wonderful.
Chuck grew up, went to medical school, joined the Navy and hung out with the Marines as a flight surgeon. And inspired a generation--myself included--to develop an entire surgical specialty from whole cloth: neurointerventional surgery. The only snowplows he saw moved the considerable amounts of white stuff that fell from the sky in mid-century Pittsburgh winters.
My boys in particular adored roaming the woods all day in the summer. The only rule was they had to be home before dark.
They fell out of trees a couple of times, came home with scrapes and bruises sometimes, but were happy as larks.
I’m glad I ignored the many people who declared me unfit for allowing them to go off and explore.
Edit to add: on the flip side I was emphatic about school. No excuses for bad grades and bad behavior.
You'd like Chuck's book. His parents assumed he would be safe. From time to time, he'd take the trolley into Pittsburgh and get home well after everyone had gone to sleep. No one really worried about it. It wasn't a big deal then. Now things would be different. A lot different. And nowhere nearly as good.
I enjoyed Yours and M. Horton's "conversation." Yeah, I had it lucky. Just had to be home by dinner and come in after when called to.
The shame of it is that You can have CPS on Your back if You did like that today. And that's a mistake. IMO, even in the city. From what I know, the number of child-snatchings has gone DOWN since I was a kid. But the fear-mongering *industry* would have You think the *opposite.*
This is what LITTLE I know of it, not having raised kids.
Ideally You could keep an eye on Yours and the neighbors kids while leaving them, for the most part, unsupervised. I think it's the letting them try things and fail, that makes the kids resilient. And working out the changing hierarchies within the group on their own helps as well.
As a boy back then, we were real lucky. Good chunk-a the time was doing team sports. No need for supervision. Team? I dunno the term is used much these days.
Just seen the results when these things aren't done, is all.
I m so jealous your kids had this opportunity of an unattended play. That’s how I grew up (outside of the US). but it felt impossible to replicate for the kids in the US. How old are they now? What are they up to now?
"But it seems all the would-be husbands have been left functionally castrated by porn addictions, or slaving away at a 9-to-5 trying to pay for a tiny apartment..." So now working a regular 8 hour day to support oneself is a bad thing?? I'd rather live in a tiny apartment through my own earnings than live in my parents' basement. You have to build up one's career and buying power. It doesn't happen immediately. Sounds like she doesn't value a decent, hardworking guy or understand the work and years of effort that go into living a comfortable life. No wonder she can't find any good guys.
A consequence of living online is no ability to delay gratification.
This comment is today's internet winner! Thank you! Our grandparents went to work and complained about it, it just didn't get exposure beyond the kitchen table and maybe a neighbor or two. Now every complaint is heard and reinforced the world over by social media where delayed gratification does not exist.
That same line caught my eye. You don’t want a self-sufficient, employed man? You want a part- time dog walker or what?
Yeah, I haven't worked a 9 to 5 job ever. My job is like 8 until 6 on good days. My husband works 8 until 4 on normal days, but way over during sports seasons coaching (he is a teacher). 9 to 5 jobs are just clocking it in, doing the bare minimum. Nothing wrong with that, but 9 to 5 jobs leave more than enough time to practice relationship skills and to go out into the world and find a mate.
Yeah, that line tripped me up as well. I am guessing it was just sloppy writing, and she meant something more like "slaving away at a 60-hour/week, high stress job so they can afford a tiny apartment in a trendy neighborhood".
"Sounds like she doesn't value a decent, hardworking guy or understand the work and years of effort that go into living a comfortable life."
Ha! Work and years of effort? What???!!! Sorry. Not even 9-to-5...not happening...:)