I always cackle when people say the $60 billion is a great investment in our national security on the cheap.
Yeah it would be……..IF IT WORKED.
Does anyone think the dipshits who have lost 9 consecutive wars are going to defeat Putin with $60 billion? No they’re just going to lose $60 billion and kill 100,000 more people.
My dream is for them to get the $60 billion so that 3 months form now when it’s gone and nothing is accomplished we can ask them
It will never work you could spend 10 trillion and still not defeat Russia militarily. History is filled with many stories of the failed attempts to defeat Russia. Ukraine is running out of troops and Russia isn’t. Russia has the ability to manufacture its own weapons and Ukraine doesn’t. Ukraine is not a democracy it just suspended its presidential election
We don’t need any of that bullshit Bob. It ain’t 1965. Get some historical context. The U.S. is in no position, economically, militarily or morally to dictate what any other country should or should not do. We need to focus on rebuilding our economy and a productive manufacturing infrastructure to give us the economic strength to lead.
Ukraine has been part of Russia, since before the United States even existed. Russia saved Ukraine from both the Mongols and Turks , plus British Swedes, and Germans. So bring it monkey boy.
How much US treasure are you willing to expend to burn those fingers? How many lives of Ukrainian men, and now women? Charlie Wilson had the same view of Russia, he won his "war" but it did not secure world peace.
It’s not the USA spending Ukrainian lives for Ukrainian land. It’s Ukraine spending Ukrainian lives to prevent another Holodomor. If Russia wins, that’s exactly what they will get.
I do not pretend to know the future in this region.
The region's past is hard enough to understand. Although I agree that the bad blood generated by this US proxy war may not bode well for Ukraine. To be clear I am opposed to what some of US leadership did to provoke this war not to Ukraine defending itself. I think if it was necessary to intervene that should have been done by European nations. I am opposed to US proxy wars. And the warmongers who support them. I am opposed to war by executive fiat and think Congress should do its job. I think the Boden Administration has behaved abominably in this misadventure.
The former Warsaw Pact countries applied to join NATO specifically because they were and are afraid of Russia. The leopard does not change its spots just because it is no longer officially communist.
History is filled with many examples where a Russians lost (such as in Afghanistan against a much smaller country than Ukraine) and at that time the Russians where not alone but had the rest of the Soviet Union as support. Furthermore all serious historians know that the Germans only lost against the Soviet Union because later received massive support from the US via the lend-lease program. Without it, the outdated Soviet armee would have lost.
Neither the US is a free country now. Woked, racist, canceled, etc. Still do you want a perfectly dictatorial deadly Russia to enslave Ukraine and the US?
I beg to disagree. Stevens is right Colby is wrong. Ukraine is in our immediate security neck of woods. Failure to support Ukraine will lead to US failure in the Pacific. Precisely as it happened in Europe in 1938.
I can hardly believe just how far out over its skis the US & NATO are on Ukraine. Bret, two things coalesced in the past 10 years. Smart phones & social media. Bush Jr. lied his way into an Iraq adventure, nobody is buying what you’re selling any longer, and we can all talk about it in a meta way. Oh, and Ukraine is one of the flattest expanses of land on earth, and Russia population is 144M to Ukraine’s 37.5M. Come back to reality and negotiate a peace already. And no, Ukraine isn’t getting back Crimea. That’s done. Russia gifted Crimea to Ukraine in 1953 on the 300 year commemoration / celebration of Crimea entry into Russia (Catherine the Great won it from Turks in 1653). Ukraine wants to join NATO (but Russia denied entry to NATO in 1998 & 1953), then they are going to take back what they think their partner no longer appreciates. Crimea, I believe is 77% Russia speakers. If Crimea is a condition for peace then there will be no peace.
Bret, I noticed only you resorted to name calling (of Tucker). If you know anything about debate, it’s usually the one who does that, who’s already lost the argument.
"Come back to reality and negotiate a peace already."
"Crimea, I believe is 77% Russia speakers."
The first sentence is sheer nonsense. Russia does not want Ukraine to exist exactly as Iran does not want Israel to exist. What peace? Who is going to negotiate, with whom, and about what?
The second sentence is even greater political nonsense. Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and near 100% of other Americans in 1776 were English speakers. That was one of the main reasons why they waged brutal war on England. Just to speak.
And finally. I also speak flawless Russian and this is my exact reason to keep Russia, her rulers and inhabitants as far as possible from any other place and any person on Earth. Just to survive. This sentiment is shared by near 100% of other Russian speakers in this country. Except for Carlson, who is the ultimate reader of the Russian sublime soul.
Matt L. are going to urge Biden or Trump to send my family back to Russia? This is you Crimean and Putin's criminal logic. What was once Russian's should always be owned by her tsars.
Dang! And I thought I knew Russian history -- you know, The Rus, Vladimir, Vladomir & Vlodomir, Genghis Khan and Family , the Muslims all the way to Vienna, Sweden's rule -- the Russkies and their hired help fought 'em all off, at one time or another. Research their religions "Vatican." It's Kiev, by the way, the Orthodox capital of everything.
This tired song Of FUD - who actually buys this kind of garbage anymore????:
“...it is cheap for us, not only because $100 billion isn’t what it used to be but because Ukraine is doing the hard fighting, defeating, decimating the Russian military so that we don’t have to face this kind of confrontation ourselves in a few years. “
We are FAR more likely to self-immolate as a country than “face this kind of confrontation ourselves in a few years...”.
And $100billion isn’t what it used to be?!?!?! Pathetic.
Given the openness of the southern border (7.2M in since Joe took office) and what Mike Benz reveals in his Tucker interview, we are ceasing to be a nation ruled by the will of the voters. There’s an inversion of our Republic occurring, and next chance to reverse this comes in November.
I wish you were right about that last bit. The will of the voters last happened in 2016, and only because it was such a shock. They’ll never let that happen again.
I'm cackling right along with you. How many billions have already been spent? And what results do you have to show for that? Yeah, there are a lot of dead Russians. But, there are plenty left to be sent to the front as needed. Unless NATO and Biden come up with a real plan to kick Russia out once and for all, then just admit your failure and get out.
We haven’t been in a major war for a long time and our $900 billion PER YEAR military needs extra funds to fight a mid-range proxy war and even with the extra funds we are still running out of ammunition.
Everyone needs to understand that our permanent government is run by Democrats and Democrats are parasites and they have managed to turn even the US military into a scam.
Our military won’t get more funding, the interest on the debt will soon outpace the military spending. It’s not isolationist to say no to more aid to Ukraine when the ‘bread and circuses’ spending has destroyed any budget.
Actually Kevin, the house is run by Republicans that are not able or willing to pass a bill for months. Why is that? Because they are now controlled by Trump and Trump isn't working for the American people but for Putin.
Only someone suffering from severe mental illness would feel no shame in regurgitating State Media talking points the way you have.
Conservatives are not pumping additional funds into Ukraine because it is a scam being run by evil morons. Europe has $60 billion if you are actually dumb enough to think that $60 billion, on top of the multi-nation slush fund of $300 billion so far, will make a difference.
It’s not the American “dipshits” who have to defeat Putin, its the Ukrainians, and they were doing a pretty good job until the extremist Republicans in Congress conspired to stop the aid, something that is worth to Putin more than the 300,000 Russians he got through partial mobilization or all the shells and missiles he gets from Iran and N Korea.
It’s also funny how Americans are arguing over $113 billion to get the Ukrainians to fight the Cold War (that never ended), but everybody shrugs the $138 billion (and more to come!) that Biden has handed over to college loan recipients in one the most naked vote-buying schemes ever. Also forgotten are the at least $150 billion lost to fraud from the “Covid relief” money. I don’t see any big debate and anguish over those and many other wasted billions, no doubt because The Great Trump hasn’t said anything about that. Today, the “principles” and “well thought opinions” of the Republicans are simply whatever Trump blabs on that topic - because they are all afraid of the MAGA cultists.
“and they were doing a pretty good job until the extremist Republicans in Congress conspired to stop the aid”
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Yes, they had almost taken back Crimea until 2 weeks ago when MAGA said no, and then boom pow they lost all of the territory and 400,000 Ukrainians died. It’s just like how the border was “secure” until extremist MAGA didn’t pass the Perpetual Amnesty Machine 17 days ago and now suddenly the border is unsecured and it’s their fault!!
You really do need to be a flat-out simpleton in order for this kind of propaganda to work on you.
It truly is a unique form of mental illness to think that another $60 billion will make the difference when we’ve given $300 billion combined with other nations to get a stalemate with untold destruction and death. It’s like being a degenerate gambler, honestly.
Hopefully Democrats will sweep in November and they can pass $500 billion in Ukraine money and still lose. Then China can invade Taiwan and the global economy will collapse and we can eradicate Democrats and neocons in 2028.
In the words of John McEnroe, You cannot be serious.
Let's look at reality. Trump was POTUS, no war. Biden gets elected and in Feb 2021 he clearly states that the Taliban won't be allowed to setup a terrorist base in Afghanistan. But by March, Biden vacillates on the Afghan withdrawal date and starts blaming Trump. Meanwhile, Putin looks at what Biden is doing in Afghanistan, how Biden is running the US Govt by Woke initiatives and appointments, and throwing Trillions at climate boondoggles and Putin starts the buildup on the Ukranian border. Putin withdraws many of the troops from the border in June due to international condemnation. But then in early July Biden runs out of Afghanistan early because the Taliban was soooo strong militarily and our troops might get hurt. You saw the pictures in August. People hanging off airplanes, just like in Vietnam. Shameful. Cowardly. And that after Biden told all of us on July 8th that no way that would happen.
Back in the US, the Biden administration is attacking the US Oil Companies, promising to put them out of business and even sue them for environmental damages. Well, if the US oil companies are not going to supply US consumers oil, who is? Russia perhaps?
In October, Putin kick starts the buildup along the border. Gas prices are way up, inflation is roaring, and Biden is blaming everyone but himself for the Afghan debacle, gas prices, and inflation. Putin knows there will never be a better time, and sure enough the invasion began early next year.
Americans know a never-ending war when we see one. Despite your proclamation that Ukraine was winning the war with Russia, they were at best simply holding back the onslaught despite all of the money thrown at them. They did try one offensive, but that went nowhere fast. Conclusion? Never ending war ultimately costing trillions and achieving an uninhabitable bombed-out Ukraine. Is that when we then start spending billions more on rebuilding?
Enough is enough. Either Biden and NATO come up with a plan to win the war with Russia using their own troops and weapons, or just get out. What did Biden learn from Vietnam or Afghanistan? Nothing. And the Ukraine will end up just like they did unless NATO does a 180 and gets serious about defending the Ukraine.
There isn’t a single word that you’ve written about Biden and his policies in the US and Afghanistan that I would disagree with.
But you’re making up what I supposedly said in my post. “ Despite your proclamation that Ukraine was winning the war with Russia”. Read again. I said they were doing a pretty good job - when everybody at the start of the war was giving them max 10 days of resistance to Putin. It’s really funny to see how the Ukrainians are so willing to fight and die while the American isolationists want to “save” them by cutting the aid.
You seem to imagine that the Cold War ended a long time ago. Another illusion from American wishful thinking. When you come from Russia and E Europe, you know the Cold War never ended, it just took Russia a while to recover and get back at it. Just like the first part, this Cold War will cost. America just needs to decide if it’s some money now or a lot more money and American lives later. Simple choice, forced by Putin, whether you like it or not.
Ok, so doing pretty good is not winning. I think that is a bit of a stretch, but Ok. And sure, we all thought the war would be over in a few months, just like Putin probably did. But the Russian army wasn't nearly as good as we thought, and the Ukrainians obviously were not as fond of Russia as the media seemed to be telling us.
Wasn't the cold war about communism vs capitalism? And therefore, the cold war did end when the Soviet Union split up and all of the former republics, including Russia, adopted capitalism to a large extent if not totally.
I actually worked with a Russian company back in the 1990s to import their products and sell them to the US market. From my perspective, clearly the cold war was over.
I don't think the average American understands why Putin invaded the Ukraine. Putin is painted as a monster in the western media, but that media has shown time and again that they tend to pick and choose facts to support their perspectives.
Americans don't believe for a second that Russia is any real threat to the US other than their nuclear capabilities. If it takes two years to take a third of the Ukraine which is right next door, then the US has nothing to worry about from Russian conventional forces.
I think most Americans would support the Ukraine if Biden actually gave us a detailed and convincing plan that would show us that the money would result in something good for the Ukraine or the world. But this has turned into a stalemate to a large degree, and it now appears that no matter how many billions are sent over there, there is no good outcome for anyone. That is not isolationism. That is pragmatism.
First, if everybody gave Ukraine 10 days and after almost two years Russia has failed to conquer any major city and has lost almost all of its original military, how would you call that for Ukraine? Pretty good or pretty bad?
Second, and this is the big issue, I’m not surprised that Americans don’t understand why the Cold War has never ended. The Americans are lucky to live in a country that does not allow them to understand the Russian’s mindset about their empire; I say that without any irony.
Don’t you find surprising that the communist Soviet Union had exactly the outline of the Tsarist Empire, including all of its colonial conquests? After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Americans were very generous and treated the Russians as victims of the communist regime, like all the other countries that the Soviet Union gobbled up ( like the Baltics). That was a huge mistake; communism was the outer layer, but inside is the old Russian Empire. I know it’s difficult to understand, but in a nutshell:
The Tsarist Empire, the Soviet Union and now Putin’s KGB empire have never been willing or able to provide freedom and prosperity for their subjects. The substitute has always been “the empire”, which allows ordinary Russian people and even “Россияне” (non-Slavic Russian citizens) to feel that they are not on the lowest rung of the Russian society, since there’s somebody on whose throat they can also put their boot, just as their higher-ups do to them.
And when I say “put their boots on somebody’s throat, I mean that literally. This is light years away from American mentality; you have to live it on your own skin to understand. Just visiting doesn’t cut it.
And yes, you are absolutely right to say that Biden should explain all of this in full detail, he should spell out clearly why Russia is an existential threat. In the short term, there’s no way that Russia is a direct military threat to the US; what it aims is to destroy America’s system of alliances by demonstrating that America does not have either the willingness and the force to defend them. After they get back their empire, re-establish their control over Eastern and Central Europe and dominate the richer but decrepit Western Europe, then comes the time of direct threats. But do you realistically expect something from the decrepit Biden, other than eating his ice cream?
Hey Andy, you really think the Warsaw Pact is coming back if Russia ‘wins’ Ukraine? I don’t, but okay if you really think that. The history of Russia is very much as you lay out. Which is why it’s not the USA business to get involved there. If you are explaining how oppressive Russia is, as an argument why the USA should reverse that oppression, that largely falls on deaf ears. There are many places around the globe where the dominant ethnic group, is stepping on the throat of the minority, and the USA is not intervening. What makes Ukraine the exception?
“It’s not the American “dipshits” who have to defeat Putin, its the Ukrainians”
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Also, it’s pretty disrespectful to blame the Ukrainians (who are being slaughtered for no reason on behalf of eurotrash communists, megalomaniac utopian neocons, and Democrat scumbags) for the incredibly expensive boneheaded catastrophe that has occurred.
I guess you can tell the women whose husbands have died that you were protecting them from the mid-level supermarket Tucker Carlson went to. Sure, Russia’s gdp per capita is 40% higher than the Eastern European average, but you can’t criticize Putin in Russia and omg it’s like the return of Hitler if you can’t criticize Putin.
It’s basically like chattel slavery all over again if you can’t criticize Putin so it’s absolutely worth $1 trillion and a million dead bodies if we can save the Donbas region from the insane horror of not being able to criticize Vlad Putin.
You guys are genuine unhinged maniacs. I will reiterate that this is very similar to Redneck Honor Culture where you needlessly fight someone to the death because you are right and they are wrong.
1) You can’t object to insults and vulgarities when you are baselessly calling people traitors. That’s like me pimp-slapping your wife and then saying “Okay everyone remain calm. Let’s have a robust dialogue.”
2) this criticism is incoherent
3) The ‘substance’ of your post was that MAGA is a cult and they listen to Trump. Brilliant!! 🤡🤡🤡
I forgot to mention that you can’t tell the difference between irony and an insult. Or maybe your style of irony is to refer to “pimp-slapping” my wife? Even in MAGA-land, that won’t take you too far.
Bret Stephens jumped the shark years ago when he took his toys and went to the NYT from the WSJ because no one was buying his load of malarkey there anymore. And then he went to the NYT and the commenters were even more vicious.
But at heart he’s a war monger and has never seen a conflict he didn’t want the US to get into or pay for. He laughably states Europe should provide the economic assistance yet plumps for us to give $60 billion of which much goes to ….economic assistance like pensions. All the while we are being invaded, our population is being killed by illegal alien men and our population is struggling from bidenflation. No thanks Mr expert.
Spot on .Kagan got us into Iraq with the WMD Story,his wife Victoria Nuland was the “brainsl behind the 2014 Ukrainian revolt
In Maidan Square. Now she is back in the Biden administration as of 2021 and surprise a war with Russia . How neither expert mentions the expansion of NATO after the collapse of the USSR is surprising.
Victoria Nuland is a menace to society, along with her sidekick Bill Kristol. Two cretinous cowards. They have no conscience nor shame. I wouldn’t let them in my garden, let alone guest bathroom.
Yup, Bret is a pompous ass. There are generally two foreign policy camps, (1) liberalism, and (2) realism. Bret worships at the alter of liberalism, nation building, etc…. The problem is, many of the nations Bret wants to build - don’t want to be built. Period. But he keeps pushing his worldview on foreign enemies hoping one day they will wake up and agree with him. Such a moron.
Slightly tangential to the Ukraine support issue....let's look at why Russia is always the Western establishment’s (and MSM’s) Enemy-No1? Because it always is – Ukraine war or not. So is it because of Putin having his political enemies neutralised then? Does that automatically put Russia as No1 in the naughty corner of nations? There are surely better candidates. I'm glad I don't live in Russia but Russia - Iran - Afghanistan?....I know which of these I'd rather be exiled to. Ever since 1917 – and despite the huge artistic and ethnic links between our cultures – Western establishments have got into a pathological fix on Russia which they don’t seem able to rid themselves of.
Our MIC needs enemies, and Russia fit that bill from end of WW2 until early 1990’s. MIC needs to produce and use arms, just like Nike needs you to use up and then buy new sneakers. This fuels jobs in USA & EU, and it also inflates 401K/IRA’s of working Americans. USA would not allow Russia into NATO in 1998 (when Putin asked Clinton if it was possible) because USA & MIC still needed an enemy to justify big $ government Defense contracts, and all the economic engine that enemy fuels. That’s the dirty underbelly of all this. MIC has made complicit the financial health of our very retirement accounts, and financial stability. Because if NATO is diminished, then so too is the IMF, Banking System, and primacy/power of the US dollar as the world’s reserve, fiat currency. This is why it was so f*cking stupid to allow Bret and other voices like him w/ power in the Atlantic Council to court Georgia, then Ukraine to join NATO. It’s also why Baltic states & Finland should also, not be part of NATO. Doing this just set up a danger trip wire for generations to come.
Yes, Bret did find his true liberal home at the NYT but even they don’t like his soft progressive lines. He cleverly doesn’t engage with Bridge regarding the lack of equivalence between what is at stake on our border and with the future of Taiwan. His liberal bent is throw money at any foreign war we can to prop up the elite causes, ignoring the waste and graft that has followed that plan since Vietnam Nam and Afghanistan. They never learn from their stupid ideas.
While I don't disagree entirely with your take on Bret, I found his opponent not much different. Instead of throwing money at the mere skin cancer of Ukraine, Colby instead wants us to throw a few hundred billion into the Pacific against out next heart attack which is China. Surprising you hate Stephens for his angle on Europe, but say nothing about the other guy who wants to throw it all away in the East.
Perhaps I should have used the word ‘dislike’. I didn’t know hate would be such a non starter for you. No worries. My heart has room for both hate and love.
I'm definitely on Team Colby here. We need to deal with what is real, not what we think is ideal.
Ignoring Tucker Carlson because you don't like what he's saying is stupid, because a lot of people ARE listening to him, even if they don't all agree with him. As I've pointed out before, if only 5% of Americans like Putin, where are all these Putin-lovers the Left screeching on about, who according to the TFP's Oliver Wiseman and Peter Savodnik comprise most of conservatives?
Celia, the Leftists always lump everyone into the Deranged Deplorable MAGA Cult!
If you dare think for yourself, and if you dare question their narrative, you are a danger to democracy. Actually what they are saying is, “You are a danger to Democrats!”
I do not agree with everything Tucker says! I do not agree with everything Trump says! I do not agree with everything (I PAY) to read here, on TFP platform! I AM A FREETHINKER, and that isn’t acceptable to the Left.
You are a Putin lover if you acknowledge there are some aspects in Russian life that may actually be better even if Putin is a despot. As Jon Stewart said last week: the reason many American cities are unsafe, have shit covered sidewalks, rampant crime, extreme homelessness, graffiti everywhere and dangerous mass transit is because we have FREEDOM.
I don’t think he made the point he thought he was trying to make. This is the fulfillment of Rousseau’s "Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains." For society to be so compassionate that it is required to look past decay and not hold people accountable.for all of us to be civilized savages.
Rudimentary services as in streets, fire and police protection, trash disposal, sanitation. Those are all suffering. If by compulsory treatment, long-term involuntary treatment to mental health facilities is unconstitutional unless a crime is committed, (a ruling by a liberal Supreme Court not a decision by Ronald Reagan to close mental hospitals for financial reasons as often erroneously believed by the ill-informed) acknowledged and an insanity defense successfully utilized.
"Bret Stephens: Well, America’s role should be to assist the Ukrainians militarily, primarily. "
Oh, FFS, Bret Stephen . Ukraine is as corrupt a place as can be found. Their stage clown president has cancelled elections, barred opposition parties, fired the Ukraine general who was holding ceasefire/settlement negotiations with his Russian counterpart.
American taxpayers aren't merely paying for weapons that our MIC sells, it sends CASH to pay the Ukraine government and its pensions. That cash leaks into the hands of the usual suspects. There is no accountting and not accountability. It is a slush fund for a society the bulk of which is as corrupt as you can imagine.
Let the Euros pay. They can buy from us and send the guns and tanks to the Uk's. And send cash to the thieves there.
I agree - Europe isn't the europe of the 1950's - 1970's et al. The left LOVE to talk about their high standard of living, health care, maternity leave, blah blah blah. WHY IS THAT? Because they don't pay their share for defense! All of these nations believe the US will still be the world's police and its appalling how any of these nations have been able to get away with it and US policy makers since the 1990's have just doled out money like we are the rich uncle. And then its like, Oh crap - Russia is right there! Russia, who we all agreed we wouldn't add more countries to NATO, wouldn't kick the dog while it's down. For God's sake - without Russia I'd be sitting in freaking Nazi France right now! Proof of how they bled themselves dry to beat the Nazi's - the Russians have done that time and time again. They are a government and military that LITERALLY DISMANTLED AND REMOVED MANUFACTURING BUILDINGS DURNG WW2 in their towns so the Nazi's wouldn't capture them. The Russians are a force to reckon with - it's something all these political think tanks knew and know. But what about EUROPE? Where are those policy makers? what have they all been doing since the 1990's? All figured once the war was done they didn't need to have an underlying strategy for any Russian aggression to rear its head bc you know - "the cold war was over". The strategy is NATO ie. the US will fix it. There was maybe a decade where Russia was ok and Americans and Europeans could visit and we could all "be normal". I don't think for a single second that all this was a surprise that Ukraine was shady and Russia was going to be what Russia has been and I'm pretty sure clearly signaled it was. China has over 1 BILLION PEOPLE. They have people and distance on their side. THAT WILL BE EXPENSIVE AMERICA. And we have to ask ourselves - will EUROPE BE THERE IN THE PACIFIC AS WELL?
Stephens trots out the failed dominos theory that got us into every conflict since Korea. It’s been a lie every time. Bret also claimed that victory is a decisive defeat of the Russian military. Guess what Bret 1 trillion dollars won’t defeat the Russians militarily because Ukraine doesn’t have the manpower to do it there is only one country that might have that ability and it’s not certain that we could even pull it off. So taking his theory to its logical conclusion is American boys dying in Ukraine. This is exactly what happened in Vietnam. The French were bankrolled by the United States in the war they engaged in during the 50’s only to turn tail and run. (The French will always run). So it was dead Americans way more than dead Frenchmen for another decade in that failure of the domino theory. All HoChiMinh wanted was to have a sovereign state free of the French he even adopted Jeffersonian principles but the CIA lied to Truman (see the connection?) about HoChiMinh even though we funded him during WWII as he fought against the Japanese. We have once again backed a corrupt government that is illegitimate. We engineered a coup in 2014 to overthrow a democratically elect president and now the President has just suspended elections so he is a tyrant now. We held our 1864 national elections during our civil war. Nobody will ever tell you why it’s in our national security interest to waste treasure and then blood in Ukraine.
Yes! Truth gets in the way of their narrative don't you know! Stop the endless Wars. Dismantle the CIA and Declassified all the war documents immediately!
So you’d rather just have Korea being ALL North Korea? Korea is the single success story neolibs and neocons always point to as the success and why we must try again and I agree it was the one success. Everywhere else is an abject failure.
The French - THE ELITES IN PARIS - imo would sign on the dotted line today to give away whatever amount of Ukraine to Russia to keep the peace - for them.
Not true. On Feb 16th France signed an aid package agreement with Ukraine to give them $3.23 Billion in military aid and weapons, and including in the agreement for France to work to get Ukraine admitted to NATO. Try to keep up.
Theres been so much snark in everyone today. Perhaps is that we all cannot adult. Good on Ann for using Google. But lets see the tally- shall we? - enemy at my back door...3.23 billion and another stick poking the dog 2 years INTO the war. Looks like too little too late. Versus well over 100 billion and a desire for ANOTHER 60 plus billion from the US - from across the Atlantic Ocean. Whoop. Dee. Doo. France. How's that Nato fund coming along?
When it comes right down to it, we don’t have the money. I am not interested in my grandchildren trying to claw their way out of this pit of debt we are leaving them. That is totally aside from the fact we baited Putin into this war and highly discouraged any negotiations to end it before it became a blood bath.
I disagree with those that say Bret Stephens jumped the shark. He is thoughtful and I appreciate his sentiments.
Here is what virtually no one can explain to me.
Putin is a horrible person. As horrible as any other tyrant in human history? Maybe, but certainly there are worse. Putin would make the top 20.
At the same time, can't I recognize that Ukraine is an incredibly corrupt government and I don't want to spend money propping them up without being accused of being a Nazi?
I feel horribly for the Ukrainian citizen. At the same time, strategically I see know reason economically or militarily to prop the country up. Does it change things if Putin runs it or a corrupt Ukrainian government?
A lot of the hate I see in Europe and other foreign countries for Trump has roots in the fact that the US spends a lot of money in their country when they should be fending for themselves. During and Post WW2, the US built the roads they drive on and rebuilt the buildings they live in. The US has been their protector militarily. When was the last all Italian built fighter plane which is ground breakingly innovative you remember being built? Where is the revolution in energy production in the EU? Where is the general engineering innnovation? Why is the center of development/innovation in SF/Bay Area and not in Brussels? America certainly has lower math and science standardized test scores.
The hate for Trump is more about envy and jealousy so they lash out and call him "Hitler", yet they want America to foot the bill to get rid of the Russian Hitler, Putin.
Time for them to get out of their teenage years and fend for themselves.
The thing I know is the only way Ukraine wins is if Europe and/or the US send in troops. Maybe in the form of pilots? Russia with its population being 4X that of Ukraine can simply out last them, so it begs the question. Why are they not trying to negotiate the end now before another million people are killed? More money alone just means more dead bodies.
What I find shocking about Bret Stevens is how easy he makes it seem. That Ukranian is going to sweep through the mind fields against an entrenched enemy with superior numbers. Stevens has become such a pompous ass since moving from the WSJ to the New York Times, but a man has to keep his job.
As a realist, Ukraine tried to breach those lines this year and failed miserably. They are chewing through a generation of its best, and for what end? To recapture four territories that are pro-Russian in outlook. It's time to start working toward a deal where Russia keeps the territories won and Ukraine enters into a pact with NATO or the EU.
I highly doubt Russia will move toward Poland or the Baltics, but if they do, we must have a debate if we all want to risk the potential of all dying to stop it. I appreciate hearing Elbride Colby's thoughts, especially the ones that hurt Bret's feelings. This is serious business, and guys who write for a newspaper are not people I respect when it comes to getting a good outcome. Great interview, Bari.
And yet we just admitted Finland and Sweden (Hungary just agreed to Sweden this past week, so that will be finished shortly) to NATO. Putin threatened Finland with all kinds of shit if they dared to join NATO, but they did it anyway because they saw the danger of not belonging when Russia invaded Ukraine. So now Russia’s border with NATO is double what it was before the invasion and it’s all Russia/Putin’s fault.
Big f*cking mistake to give NATO status to Finland. Same w/ Baltic States. These countries are not in USA vital national interests, they border Russia directly and if attacked by Russia in future, invoke Article 5, which could lead to WW3. DEFCON level permanently increased due to unnecessary NATO expansion.
You mean decreased, I suppose? DEFCON 1 is nukes. DEFCON 5 is nothing happening. Finland can do what it wants. Sweden too. They made a sober assessment of the situation and applied to join.
Exactly, he breezily comments about taking land from 2014 back although Russia has plainly stated wmds would be on the table . Has anyone gamed this out?
One of the major reasons Russia invaded was because Ukraine crossed a red line by wanting to be in NATO and the west didn’t shut that down immediately. So that definitely would be a stupid idea to have that be a negotiation item.
And yet, because Russia invaded Ukraine, both Finland and Sweden have joined NATO, which not only doubles Russia’s border with NATO, but also makes the entire Baltic Sea controlled by NATO countries (except for tiny sliver near St Petersburg). So if Russia didn’t want its border with NATO expanded, they made a colossal mistake invading Ukraine.
"I highly doubt Russia will move toward Poland or the Baltics, but if they do, we must have a debate if we all want to risk the potential of all dying to stop it." - well that is reassuring. People in those countries have a different view because they have been living next to Russia and hearing is sword-rattling on a near daily basis. No one in Poland was surprised by the TC interview. We've been hearing the same thing for at least 16 years or so. Poland has been telling Europe to up its military game for years and now they are finally listening.
So, I imagine when Pootin' does invade another country, we will hear on a thread like this that once again it is not in the US interests to do anything about it. Poltroonery.
If they move towards Poland, Poland will hand them their lunch. That is not happening. Poland is not Ukraine. They are heavily armed with western weapons and are already trained to use them.
I really get a kick out of the notion that running out of ammunition in Ukraine will send a strong message to the Millenarian Chinese Communist Psychopaths that will get them to back off of their 1,000 year plan for global dominance.
Send some speech writers and turn everything else over to the Europeans. It's in their backyard, and if it really bothers them, they will do something about it.
If lots of us weren’t descendants of Europeans, we’d care about Europe as much as we care about Africa.
The Pacific is America’s future, not the North Atlantic. South Korea’s GDP has grown 80x since 1964. Not 80% - 80X, as in 8,000%. Japan looks like it is finally thriving again after digging its way out of the ‘80’s economic crater.
We can’t turn our back on Europe, but I don’t get our obsession with propping up economies and alliances to counter an existential threat that ceased to exist as it was known almost 40 years ago. Almost 2 generations. Sheesh.
What about 2 years to help Europe get back on its feet militarily? It pulled its weight during the cold war and started to demilitarise at about the same time the US started to change its military structure to fight terrorism.
I think it's rude and disgusting that Ms Weiss says "the collapse of courage and moral clarity, if you want to use that term, I use it advisedly, among a terrifying number of Republicans." We republicans, we Americans, we Patriots are just sick of people dying for no reason and done with our money used in corrupt fashion! The Ukrainians cannot win this war that's the reality and everybody who actually looks at it from a lens of reality knows that, no matter how much money we throw at it. And why are we so worried about other people's borders when we can't even keep our own borders safe, when terrorists and God knows who else are slinking into our country and making it unsafe for our citizens! There's only so much money in the pot and to keep printing it and printing it is not the answer to a healthy economy. So we should collapse our economy to save a country on the other side of the world while leaving our country open to Invasion and Chaos? I think our "courage and moral character" is doing just fine! How many Democrats do you see in the military fighting for the freedoms and Liberties of this country? No most of them are Republicans who are full of "courage" and love their country! That's a fact look it up Bari Weiss!! And in terms of our "moral clarity", who is it that wants people to die for an unwinning cause? Literally they cannot beat Russia and we don't have the money to keep throwing at them while an entire generation of Ukrainianian men and women are dead! What happens to the Ukrainian culture when there's nothing left of it? We should be trying to negotiate peace in the region! And stop pushing Ukraine NATO inclusion. Would you want enemy weapons on your border? Look what happened in Cuba! We need to stop creating all these wars around the world just to feed the War Machine. There are much more "moral" ways for America to earn a living and to fill our coffers and to become the Beacon of Light for the world again! We can't help anyone if we have collapsed into chaos and economic destruction. Stop the flow of money now as it's only a corrupt way of filling the pockets of the Democrat swamp and Rinos anyway and you know it Bari Weiss!
Yeah, Bari does get a bit full of herself. "Courage"? Pick up a weapon, Bari, stand a post.
Are you aware Bari that the vast majority of Republicans support aid to Israel and Israel's defense into Gaza? And that an alarming number of Democrats oppose Israel's self-defense or merely oppose Israel.
You should not expose yourself, Bari Weiss. What's that old say about seeming a fool while remaining quiet or speaking and removing all doubt. Think about it Bari Weiss.
Yup , it’s not a rational argument to pour 60 billion into a war that is being lost . We need negotiations and a ceasefire to save what’s left of Ukraine
Stephens states, "...he is speaking to a society, to a country, or to at least a demographic that has lost its ability to think of the possibility of American success." The irony of a NY Times reporter.
Where has the $113 Billion to Ukraine gone? Given the long history of rampant corruption there I am worried we are just supporting more corrupt oligarchs. We seem to do that in every "necessary war". (Remember Afghanistan?)
"Bret worries that the world is on the precipice of World War III."
"$100 billion isn’t what it used to be"
Too late Bret. How many countries are already directly or indirectly involved? All of NATO, China, Korea, Russia, and who knows how many more. Call it a World War or not, the key military players are all there.
If $100 billion is just pocket change, then let the other NATO members pick up the tab.
Support for this war is waning in the US because there is no end in sight, and we already have more debt than we can reasonably deal with. If there were clear objectives, and NATO members were at the forefront of the effort and putting in maximal effort, then most Americans would continue to support it. But when NATO members don't even honor their financial commitments, and no NATO boots are on the ground, it is clear that this war could easily be lost. And what is the point of spending billions of dollars when you get the same result by spending nothing?
NATO and the UN are a joke. Not sure what the point of either is except to have a bunch of international bureaucrats giving speeches and acting like they have agreements and alliances that work.
After the USSR collapsed NATO became another over paid bureaucracy (military in this case) looking for a reason to justify its existence. Kept pushing buttons till it got one.
At first, I thought in terms of WW2 and the dominoe theory. Then I thought we can’t fund ourselves and yet we are expected to fund Ukraine? Europe doesn’t seem that concerned. And there is the corruption matter. And then I think of our border.
Yeah, the politicians have been ignoring the coming debt crisis for decades while they act like America is invincible and should police the world.
Isn't it interesting that the amount the US has given and is considering further in aid to the Ukraine is well publicized. But have you ever seen any numbers about the EU or NATO countries other than what Trump states about deadbeat countries that don't honor their commitments?
Just this week I saw for the first time where the progressives in the democratic party are now openly admitting that they think open borders for the US is appropriate and that anyone showing up at the border claiming political persecution must be admitted into the US. So at least now I know that what Biden is doing is very intentional, and his hogwash about not being able to do anything about the southern border because of the republicans is just another Biden lie.
Currently there are roughly 35,000 homeless veterans in America; why don’t we take care of these folks before we go helping someone who has never put him or herself in harm’s way for our freedoms.
Wouldn’t it be nice if we acted that way? I don’t know when it started, but veterans of Afghanistan and Iraq have been treated so poorly. $60B more to Ukraine, but we’ll probably cut the VA’s budget.
The thing that stuck with me in this exchange was the discussion of the nostalgia for the international and domestic conditions of the 1990s, which seems to be a factor for many politicians, as well as the public at large. I suspect that many people don’t realize what an unusual time that was. The U.S. had no powerful international adversaries, and almost everyone thought that the world was on a peaceful trajectory that would involve significantly more international cooperation and lower defense commitments. But really, that period was an anomaly. The enemies of modern life have regained their energy and seem determined, again, to upset a world order that has generated unprecedented freedom and prosperity.
Yeah the good times, when we handed the keys to China and spent a decade going after wmds in Iraq and maintaining no fly zones, all the while evil eyes looked to New York and the towers
Not suggesting at all that they were “good times”. As you note, a number of bad things were brewing. But apart from some regional policing to preserve the Pax Americana, the risks were widely perceived to be part of a new epoch of lower military threats and expenses. That perception was clearly misguided, but since few adults bother learning much history anymore, our society finds it difficult to make valid historical comparisons.
Yes, during the 1990’s the West’s Military Industrial Complex looked around and said ‘WTF do I justify the big Defense spending in now?’ They eventually found an adventure in Iraq. That one got old though, so now we have Ukraine.
I always cackle when people say the $60 billion is a great investment in our national security on the cheap.
Yeah it would be……..IF IT WORKED.
Does anyone think the dipshits who have lost 9 consecutive wars are going to defeat Putin with $60 billion? No they’re just going to lose $60 billion and kill 100,000 more people.
My dream is for them to get the $60 billion so that 3 months form now when it’s gone and nothing is accomplished we can ask them
“So, how’d it go? Pretty good?”
It will never work you could spend 10 trillion and still not defeat Russia militarily. History is filled with many stories of the failed attempts to defeat Russia. Ukraine is running out of troops and Russia isn’t. Russia has the ability to manufacture its own weapons and Ukraine doesn’t. Ukraine is not a democracy it just suspended its presidential election
Russia loses expeditionary wars, like their invasion of Afghanistan. The war in Ukraine is another expedition.
Ukraine needs to disrupt Russian logistics. They need to sever the rail and highway links. They need to bleed the Russian military _faster_.
We need the Russian government to burn its fingers on this adventure, or they will do it again. They will attack a country we cannot ignore.
We don’t need any of that bullshit Bob. It ain’t 1965. Get some historical context. The U.S. is in no position, economically, militarily or morally to dictate what any other country should or should not do. We need to focus on rebuilding our economy and a productive manufacturing infrastructure to give us the economic strength to lead.
So all the countries swallowed up in WWII were not "expeditionary"? Or did it just take them a long time to lose?
Do you want them to try it again?
The Soviets repelled an invading army and then pursued the retreating enemy. This is what the Tzar’s army did to Napoleon.
Try what again? Invade Europe? LOL.
Fear mongering...really? C'mon, Man!
Both those armies were over extended and crushed by the harsh Russian winter.
Hey Bob, did u miss that HS class where they went over the atom bomb? Article 5, brother. Read up on it?
Also, article 5 is exactly why I worry.
The Sudetenland wasn’t important, either.
Ukraine has been part of Russia, since before the United States even existed. Russia saved Ukraine from both the Mongols and Turks , plus British Swedes, and Germans. So bring it monkey boy.
More that the Muscovy princes extracted Ukraine from the dying Mongol empire.
The Soviets destroyed the Russian fraternity with Ukraine in the Holodomor.
How much US treasure are you willing to expend to burn those fingers? How many lives of Ukrainian men, and now women? Charlie Wilson had the same view of Russia, he won his "war" but it did not secure world peace.
Better to spend our money than our blood.
It’s not the USA spending Ukrainian lives for Ukrainian land. It’s Ukraine spending Ukrainian lives to prevent another Holodomor. If Russia wins, that’s exactly what they will get.
I do not pretend to know the future in this region.
The region's past is hard enough to understand. Although I agree that the bad blood generated by this US proxy war may not bode well for Ukraine. To be clear I am opposed to what some of US leadership did to provoke this war not to Ukraine defending itself. I think if it was necessary to intervene that should have been done by European nations. I am opposed to US proxy wars. And the warmongers who support them. I am opposed to war by executive fiat and think Congress should do its job. I think the Boden Administration has behaved abominably in this misadventure.
The former Warsaw Pact countries applied to join NATO specifically because they were and are afraid of Russia. The leopard does not change its spots just because it is no longer officially communist.
“Beware! Beware the Truce of the Bear!”
History is filled with many examples where a Russians lost (such as in Afghanistan against a much smaller country than Ukraine) and at that time the Russians where not alone but had the rest of the Soviet Union as support. Furthermore all serious historians know that the Germans only lost against the Soviet Union because later received massive support from the US via the lend-lease program. Without it, the outdated Soviet armee would have lost.
Neither the US is a free country now. Woked, racist, canceled, etc. Still do you want a perfectly dictatorial deadly Russia to enslave Ukraine and the US?
And Russia is not capable of invading let alone defeating the United States.
I couldn’t give to damn about Ukraine they are not in our national security interest we should have zero involvement there.
I beg to disagree. Stevens is right Colby is wrong. Ukraine is in our immediate security neck of woods. Failure to support Ukraine will lead to US failure in the Pacific. Precisely as it happened in Europe in 1938.
I can hardly believe just how far out over its skis the US & NATO are on Ukraine. Bret, two things coalesced in the past 10 years. Smart phones & social media. Bush Jr. lied his way into an Iraq adventure, nobody is buying what you’re selling any longer, and we can all talk about it in a meta way. Oh, and Ukraine is one of the flattest expanses of land on earth, and Russia population is 144M to Ukraine’s 37.5M. Come back to reality and negotiate a peace already. And no, Ukraine isn’t getting back Crimea. That’s done. Russia gifted Crimea to Ukraine in 1953 on the 300 year commemoration / celebration of Crimea entry into Russia (Catherine the Great won it from Turks in 1653). Ukraine wants to join NATO (but Russia denied entry to NATO in 1998 & 1953), then they are going to take back what they think their partner no longer appreciates. Crimea, I believe is 77% Russia speakers. If Crimea is a condition for peace then there will be no peace.
Bret, I noticed only you resorted to name calling (of Tucker). If you know anything about debate, it’s usually the one who does that, who’s already lost the argument.
See what you wrote:
"Come back to reality and negotiate a peace already."
"Crimea, I believe is 77% Russia speakers."
The first sentence is sheer nonsense. Russia does not want Ukraine to exist exactly as Iran does not want Israel to exist. What peace? Who is going to negotiate, with whom, and about what?
The second sentence is even greater political nonsense. Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and near 100% of other Americans in 1776 were English speakers. That was one of the main reasons why they waged brutal war on England. Just to speak.
And finally. I also speak flawless Russian and this is my exact reason to keep Russia, her rulers and inhabitants as far as possible from any other place and any person on Earth. Just to survive. This sentiment is shared by near 100% of other Russian speakers in this country. Except for Carlson, who is the ultimate reader of the Russian sublime soul.
Matt L. are going to urge Biden or Trump to send my family back to Russia? This is you Crimean and Putin's criminal logic. What was once Russian's should always be owned by her tsars.
Dang! And I thought I knew Russian history -- you know, The Rus, Vladimir, Vladomir & Vlodomir, Genghis Khan and Family , the Muslims all the way to Vienna, Sweden's rule -- the Russkies and their hired help fought 'em all off, at one time or another. Research their religions "Vatican." It's Kiev, by the way, the Orthodox capital of everything.
No it’s not at all in anyway in our security neck of woods
This tired song Of FUD - who actually buys this kind of garbage anymore????:
“...it is cheap for us, not only because $100 billion isn’t what it used to be but because Ukraine is doing the hard fighting, defeating, decimating the Russian military so that we don’t have to face this kind of confrontation ourselves in a few years. “
We are FAR more likely to self-immolate as a country than “face this kind of confrontation ourselves in a few years...”.
And $100billion isn’t what it used to be?!?!?! Pathetic.
Given the openness of the southern border (7.2M in since Joe took office) and what Mike Benz reveals in his Tucker interview, we are ceasing to be a nation ruled by the will of the voters. There’s an inversion of our Republic occurring, and next chance to reverse this comes in November.
I wish you were right about that last bit. The will of the voters last happened in 2016, and only because it was such a shock. They’ll never let that happen again.
Well, if that proves true then I’m afraid J6 is just a dress rehearsal
Kevin, most likely in 3 months Biden would be asking for another $100 Billion.
But he’ll give a speech and say that he’s asking for $100,00.
He's become so impaired that he's asking for money to send to South Vietnam!
https://anarchyforamerica.substack.com/p/biden-sends-a-thousand-military-advisors
I'm cackling right along with you. How many billions have already been spent? And what results do you have to show for that? Yeah, there are a lot of dead Russians. But, there are plenty left to be sent to the front as needed. Unless NATO and Biden come up with a real plan to kick Russia out once and for all, then just admit your failure and get out.
We haven’t been in a major war for a long time and our $900 billion PER YEAR military needs extra funds to fight a mid-range proxy war and even with the extra funds we are still running out of ammunition.
Everyone needs to understand that our permanent government is run by Democrats and Democrats are parasites and they have managed to turn even the US military into a scam.
And the Republicans have done squat about it.
Our military won’t get more funding, the interest on the debt will soon outpace the military spending. It’s not isolationist to say no to more aid to Ukraine when the ‘bread and circuses’ spending has destroyed any budget.
Actually Kevin, the house is run by Republicans that are not able or willing to pass a bill for months. Why is that? Because they are now controlled by Trump and Trump isn't working for the American people but for Putin.
Only someone suffering from severe mental illness would feel no shame in regurgitating State Media talking points the way you have.
Conservatives are not pumping additional funds into Ukraine because it is a scam being run by evil morons. Europe has $60 billion if you are actually dumb enough to think that $60 billion, on top of the multi-nation slush fund of $300 billion so far, will make a difference.
"State Media" - are you actually coming from North Korea, Russia or China? You sound like that unless you are mentally sick. Bye, bot.
Why? Because it is a razor thin margin. And the power brokers like it that way. That is the reason for the never-ending sowing of division.
Yes. A proxy war that Iran is in on by supplying Russia with arms. So we use Ukraine so Iran can use Russia ??
I think Russia and Ukraine are using each other.
And, using US, too.
Best observation on here. Meantime their soldiers continue to die and lose body parts.
Both the Ukrainian and Russian soldiers are cannon fodder for people who sit over here playing Battleship to line their pockets.
It’s not the American “dipshits” who have to defeat Putin, its the Ukrainians, and they were doing a pretty good job until the extremist Republicans in Congress conspired to stop the aid, something that is worth to Putin more than the 300,000 Russians he got through partial mobilization or all the shells and missiles he gets from Iran and N Korea.
It’s also funny how Americans are arguing over $113 billion to get the Ukrainians to fight the Cold War (that never ended), but everybody shrugs the $138 billion (and more to come!) that Biden has handed over to college loan recipients in one the most naked vote-buying schemes ever. Also forgotten are the at least $150 billion lost to fraud from the “Covid relief” money. I don’t see any big debate and anguish over those and many other wasted billions, no doubt because The Great Trump hasn’t said anything about that. Today, the “principles” and “well thought opinions” of the Republicans are simply whatever Trump blabs on that topic - because they are all afraid of the MAGA cultists.
“and they were doing a pretty good job until the extremist Republicans in Congress conspired to stop the aid”
———————————————
Yes, they had almost taken back Crimea until 2 weeks ago when MAGA said no, and then boom pow they lost all of the territory and 400,000 Ukrainians died. It’s just like how the border was “secure” until extremist MAGA didn’t pass the Perpetual Amnesty Machine 17 days ago and now suddenly the border is unsecured and it’s their fault!!
You really do need to be a flat-out simpleton in order for this kind of propaganda to work on you.
It truly is a unique form of mental illness to think that another $60 billion will make the difference when we’ve given $300 billion combined with other nations to get a stalemate with untold destruction and death. It’s like being a degenerate gambler, honestly.
Hopefully Democrats will sweep in November and they can pass $500 billion in Ukraine money and still lose. Then China can invade Taiwan and the global economy will collapse and we can eradicate Democrats and neocons in 2028.
Don’t think the Republic can survive that
I think it will. The trash will be gone and the Amdrican citizens - red, yellow, brown, black and white - will rebuild it.
In the words of John McEnroe, You cannot be serious.
Let's look at reality. Trump was POTUS, no war. Biden gets elected and in Feb 2021 he clearly states that the Taliban won't be allowed to setup a terrorist base in Afghanistan. But by March, Biden vacillates on the Afghan withdrawal date and starts blaming Trump. Meanwhile, Putin looks at what Biden is doing in Afghanistan, how Biden is running the US Govt by Woke initiatives and appointments, and throwing Trillions at climate boondoggles and Putin starts the buildup on the Ukranian border. Putin withdraws many of the troops from the border in June due to international condemnation. But then in early July Biden runs out of Afghanistan early because the Taliban was soooo strong militarily and our troops might get hurt. You saw the pictures in August. People hanging off airplanes, just like in Vietnam. Shameful. Cowardly. And that after Biden told all of us on July 8th that no way that would happen.
Back in the US, the Biden administration is attacking the US Oil Companies, promising to put them out of business and even sue them for environmental damages. Well, if the US oil companies are not going to supply US consumers oil, who is? Russia perhaps?
In October, Putin kick starts the buildup along the border. Gas prices are way up, inflation is roaring, and Biden is blaming everyone but himself for the Afghan debacle, gas prices, and inflation. Putin knows there will never be a better time, and sure enough the invasion began early next year.
Americans know a never-ending war when we see one. Despite your proclamation that Ukraine was winning the war with Russia, they were at best simply holding back the onslaught despite all of the money thrown at them. They did try one offensive, but that went nowhere fast. Conclusion? Never ending war ultimately costing trillions and achieving an uninhabitable bombed-out Ukraine. Is that when we then start spending billions more on rebuilding?
Enough is enough. Either Biden and NATO come up with a plan to win the war with Russia using their own troops and weapons, or just get out. What did Biden learn from Vietnam or Afghanistan? Nothing. And the Ukraine will end up just like they did unless NATO does a 180 and gets serious about defending the Ukraine.
There isn’t a single word that you’ve written about Biden and his policies in the US and Afghanistan that I would disagree with.
But you’re making up what I supposedly said in my post. “ Despite your proclamation that Ukraine was winning the war with Russia”. Read again. I said they were doing a pretty good job - when everybody at the start of the war was giving them max 10 days of resistance to Putin. It’s really funny to see how the Ukrainians are so willing to fight and die while the American isolationists want to “save” them by cutting the aid.
You seem to imagine that the Cold War ended a long time ago. Another illusion from American wishful thinking. When you come from Russia and E Europe, you know the Cold War never ended, it just took Russia a while to recover and get back at it. Just like the first part, this Cold War will cost. America just needs to decide if it’s some money now or a lot more money and American lives later. Simple choice, forced by Putin, whether you like it or not.
Ok, so doing pretty good is not winning. I think that is a bit of a stretch, but Ok. And sure, we all thought the war would be over in a few months, just like Putin probably did. But the Russian army wasn't nearly as good as we thought, and the Ukrainians obviously were not as fond of Russia as the media seemed to be telling us.
Wasn't the cold war about communism vs capitalism? And therefore, the cold war did end when the Soviet Union split up and all of the former republics, including Russia, adopted capitalism to a large extent if not totally.
I actually worked with a Russian company back in the 1990s to import their products and sell them to the US market. From my perspective, clearly the cold war was over.
I don't think the average American understands why Putin invaded the Ukraine. Putin is painted as a monster in the western media, but that media has shown time and again that they tend to pick and choose facts to support their perspectives.
Americans don't believe for a second that Russia is any real threat to the US other than their nuclear capabilities. If it takes two years to take a third of the Ukraine which is right next door, then the US has nothing to worry about from Russian conventional forces.
I think most Americans would support the Ukraine if Biden actually gave us a detailed and convincing plan that would show us that the money would result in something good for the Ukraine or the world. But this has turned into a stalemate to a large degree, and it now appears that no matter how many billions are sent over there, there is no good outcome for anyone. That is not isolationism. That is pragmatism.
First, if everybody gave Ukraine 10 days and after almost two years Russia has failed to conquer any major city and has lost almost all of its original military, how would you call that for Ukraine? Pretty good or pretty bad?
Second, and this is the big issue, I’m not surprised that Americans don’t understand why the Cold War has never ended. The Americans are lucky to live in a country that does not allow them to understand the Russian’s mindset about their empire; I say that without any irony.
Don’t you find surprising that the communist Soviet Union had exactly the outline of the Tsarist Empire, including all of its colonial conquests? After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Americans were very generous and treated the Russians as victims of the communist regime, like all the other countries that the Soviet Union gobbled up ( like the Baltics). That was a huge mistake; communism was the outer layer, but inside is the old Russian Empire. I know it’s difficult to understand, but in a nutshell:
The Tsarist Empire, the Soviet Union and now Putin’s KGB empire have never been willing or able to provide freedom and prosperity for their subjects. The substitute has always been “the empire”, which allows ordinary Russian people and even “Россияне” (non-Slavic Russian citizens) to feel that they are not on the lowest rung of the Russian society, since there’s somebody on whose throat they can also put their boot, just as their higher-ups do to them.
And when I say “put their boots on somebody’s throat, I mean that literally. This is light years away from American mentality; you have to live it on your own skin to understand. Just visiting doesn’t cut it.
And yes, you are absolutely right to say that Biden should explain all of this in full detail, he should spell out clearly why Russia is an existential threat. In the short term, there’s no way that Russia is a direct military threat to the US; what it aims is to destroy America’s system of alliances by demonstrating that America does not have either the willingness and the force to defend them. After they get back their empire, re-establish their control over Eastern and Central Europe and dominate the richer but decrepit Western Europe, then comes the time of direct threats. But do you realistically expect something from the decrepit Biden, other than eating his ice cream?
Hey Andy, you really think the Warsaw Pact is coming back if Russia ‘wins’ Ukraine? I don’t, but okay if you really think that. The history of Russia is very much as you lay out. Which is why it’s not the USA business to get involved there. If you are explaining how oppressive Russia is, as an argument why the USA should reverse that oppression, that largely falls on deaf ears. There are many places around the globe where the dominant ethnic group, is stepping on the throat of the minority, and the USA is not intervening. What makes Ukraine the exception?
I am.reading that the Ukrainians are no longer so willing to fight. This cheerleading them to continue to do so is unseemly.
“It’s not the American “dipshits” who have to defeat Putin, its the Ukrainians”
——————————————————-
Also, it’s pretty disrespectful to blame the Ukrainians (who are being slaughtered for no reason on behalf of eurotrash communists, megalomaniac utopian neocons, and Democrat scumbags) for the incredibly expensive boneheaded catastrophe that has occurred.
I guess you can tell the women whose husbands have died that you were protecting them from the mid-level supermarket Tucker Carlson went to. Sure, Russia’s gdp per capita is 40% higher than the Eastern European average, but you can’t criticize Putin in Russia and omg it’s like the return of Hitler if you can’t criticize Putin.
It’s basically like chattel slavery all over again if you can’t criticize Putin so it’s absolutely worth $1 trillion and a million dead bodies if we can save the Donbas region from the insane horror of not being able to criticize Vlad Putin.
You guys are genuine unhinged maniacs. I will reiterate that this is very similar to Redneck Honor Culture where you needlessly fight someone to the death because you are right and they are wrong.
It seems like there are three things that you are unable to do when responding to a post:
1. Stop spewing insults and various vulgar language
2. Stop endlessly rambling on the same 5-6 topics
3. Actually address in any way the substance of the post to which you’re responding
At $79.99/month, your subscribers get a pretty raw deal, I think. Unless they happen to reside in Lubyanka Square, of course.
1) You can’t object to insults and vulgarities when you are baselessly calling people traitors. That’s like me pimp-slapping your wife and then saying “Okay everyone remain calm. Let’s have a robust dialogue.”
2) this criticism is incoherent
3) The ‘substance’ of your post was that MAGA is a cult and they listen to Trump. Brilliant!! 🤡🤡🤡
I forgot to mention that you can’t tell the difference between irony and an insult. Or maybe your style of irony is to refer to “pimp-slapping” my wife? Even in MAGA-land, that won’t take you too far.
"It's as if someone punches you a few times and you want to end the conflict, but not before you get in a right-hook. OK, now we can be friends."
I think the 79.99 is a joke.
It think so too and worked very well. Andy appears to be very literal.
Yeah, because you have all the answers.
Honestly the amount of propaganda parroted here is impressive, you wrote without saying anything of value, well done.
Exactly, KD. Stephens pisses me off to no end because he has no practical experience in any of this crap.;
Bret Stephens jumped the shark years ago when he took his toys and went to the NYT from the WSJ because no one was buying his load of malarkey there anymore. And then he went to the NYT and the commenters were even more vicious.
But at heart he’s a war monger and has never seen a conflict he didn’t want the US to get into or pay for. He laughably states Europe should provide the economic assistance yet plumps for us to give $60 billion of which much goes to ….economic assistance like pensions. All the while we are being invaded, our population is being killed by illegal alien men and our population is struggling from bidenflation. No thanks Mr expert.
Bret has issues but, good god, every time I hear a quote from Robert Kagan I am astonished at what a utopian megalomaniac retard that guy is.
Hey, I have an idea. How about we DON’T put people whose only skill set is attending college in charge of world affairs? Can we try it?
I wouldn’t trust Robert Kagan, Victoria Nuland, Susan Rice, or Jake Sullivan to use my guest bathroom, much less to make foreign policy decisions.
Spot on .Kagan got us into Iraq with the WMD Story,his wife Victoria Nuland was the “brainsl behind the 2014 Ukrainian revolt
In Maidan Square. Now she is back in the Biden administration as of 2021 and surprise a war with Russia . How neither expert mentions the expansion of NATO after the collapse of the USSR is surprising.
I wouldn’t let them in the house.
Victoria Nuland is a menace to society, along with her sidekick Bill Kristol. Two cretinous cowards. They have no conscience nor shame. I wouldn’t let them in my garden, let alone guest bathroom.
Yup, Bret is a pompous ass. There are generally two foreign policy camps, (1) liberalism, and (2) realism. Bret worships at the alter of liberalism, nation building, etc…. The problem is, many of the nations Bret wants to build - don’t want to be built. Period. But he keeps pushing his worldview on foreign enemies hoping one day they will wake up and agree with him. Such a moron.
"Yup, Bret is a pompous ass."
You win the Internet today!
RB. Are you being sarcastic again?
Slightly tangential to the Ukraine support issue....let's look at why Russia is always the Western establishment’s (and MSM’s) Enemy-No1? Because it always is – Ukraine war or not. So is it because of Putin having his political enemies neutralised then? Does that automatically put Russia as No1 in the naughty corner of nations? There are surely better candidates. I'm glad I don't live in Russia but Russia - Iran - Afghanistan?....I know which of these I'd rather be exiled to. Ever since 1917 – and despite the huge artistic and ethnic links between our cultures – Western establishments have got into a pathological fix on Russia which they don’t seem able to rid themselves of.
Our MIC needs enemies, and Russia fit that bill from end of WW2 until early 1990’s. MIC needs to produce and use arms, just like Nike needs you to use up and then buy new sneakers. This fuels jobs in USA & EU, and it also inflates 401K/IRA’s of working Americans. USA would not allow Russia into NATO in 1998 (when Putin asked Clinton if it was possible) because USA & MIC still needed an enemy to justify big $ government Defense contracts, and all the economic engine that enemy fuels. That’s the dirty underbelly of all this. MIC has made complicit the financial health of our very retirement accounts, and financial stability. Because if NATO is diminished, then so too is the IMF, Banking System, and primacy/power of the US dollar as the world’s reserve, fiat currency. This is why it was so f*cking stupid to allow Bret and other voices like him w/ power in the Atlantic Council to court Georgia, then Ukraine to join NATO. It’s also why Baltic states & Finland should also, not be part of NATO. Doing this just set up a danger trip wire for generations to come.
Yes, Bret did find his true liberal home at the NYT but even they don’t like his soft progressive lines. He cleverly doesn’t engage with Bridge regarding the lack of equivalence between what is at stake on our border and with the future of Taiwan. His liberal bent is throw money at any foreign war we can to prop up the elite causes, ignoring the waste and graft that has followed that plan since Vietnam Nam and Afghanistan. They never learn from their stupid ideas.
A peek at his stock portfolio would be interesting.
Yes, a good suggestion: Follow the money!
While I don't disagree entirely with your take on Bret, I found his opponent not much different. Instead of throwing money at the mere skin cancer of Ukraine, Colby instead wants us to throw a few hundred billion into the Pacific against out next heart attack which is China. Surprising you hate Stephens for his angle on Europe, but say nothing about the other guy who wants to throw it all away in the East.
So saying he jumped the shark and is a war monger is just the same as hate? Wow.
Read the full sentence, Unwoke. I said you hate Stephens for his stance on Europe. Not him personally. You got that, right?
Why bring hate into it all. Unless it lurks in your heart. Own it.
Perhaps I should have used the word ‘dislike’. I didn’t know hate would be such a non starter for you. No worries. My heart has room for both hate and love.
I'm definitely on Team Colby here. We need to deal with what is real, not what we think is ideal.
Ignoring Tucker Carlson because you don't like what he's saying is stupid, because a lot of people ARE listening to him, even if they don't all agree with him. As I've pointed out before, if only 5% of Americans like Putin, where are all these Putin-lovers the Left screeching on about, who according to the TFP's Oliver Wiseman and Peter Savodnik comprise most of conservatives?
Celia, the Leftists always lump everyone into the Deranged Deplorable MAGA Cult!
If you dare think for yourself, and if you dare question their narrative, you are a danger to democracy. Actually what they are saying is, “You are a danger to Democrats!”
I do not agree with everything Tucker says! I do not agree with everything Trump says! I do not agree with everything (I PAY) to read here, on TFP platform! I AM A FREETHINKER, and that isn’t acceptable to the Left.
Yep! Well said Honey.
These “Putin lovers” are the new Proud Boys. Near figments of the blobs imagination!
You are a Putin lover if you acknowledge there are some aspects in Russian life that may actually be better even if Putin is a despot. As Jon Stewart said last week: the reason many American cities are unsafe, have shit covered sidewalks, rampant crime, extreme homelessness, graffiti everywhere and dangerous mass transit is because we have FREEDOM.
I don’t think he made the point he thought he was trying to make. This is the fulfillment of Rousseau’s "Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains." For society to be so compassionate that it is required to look past decay and not hold people accountable.for all of us to be civilized savages.
Plus it voids the social contract to not provide rudimentary services.
But, they _do_ provide rudimentary services. Otherwise the street people would have to hold themselves together better in order to survive.
They _don’t_ provide removal for compulsory treatment.
Rudimentary services as in streets, fire and police protection, trash disposal, sanitation. Those are all suffering. If by compulsory treatment, long-term involuntary treatment to mental health facilities is unconstitutional unless a crime is committed, (a ruling by a liberal Supreme Court not a decision by Ronald Reagan to close mental hospitals for financial reasons as often erroneously believed by the ill-informed) acknowledged and an insanity defense successfully utilized.
"Bret Stephens: Well, America’s role should be to assist the Ukrainians militarily, primarily. "
Oh, FFS, Bret Stephen . Ukraine is as corrupt a place as can be found. Their stage clown president has cancelled elections, barred opposition parties, fired the Ukraine general who was holding ceasefire/settlement negotiations with his Russian counterpart.
American taxpayers aren't merely paying for weapons that our MIC sells, it sends CASH to pay the Ukraine government and its pensions. That cash leaks into the hands of the usual suspects. There is no accountting and not accountability. It is a slush fund for a society the bulk of which is as corrupt as you can imagine.
Let the Euros pay. They can buy from us and send the guns and tanks to the Uk's. And send cash to the thieves there.
I agree - Europe isn't the europe of the 1950's - 1970's et al. The left LOVE to talk about their high standard of living, health care, maternity leave, blah blah blah. WHY IS THAT? Because they don't pay their share for defense! All of these nations believe the US will still be the world's police and its appalling how any of these nations have been able to get away with it and US policy makers since the 1990's have just doled out money like we are the rich uncle. And then its like, Oh crap - Russia is right there! Russia, who we all agreed we wouldn't add more countries to NATO, wouldn't kick the dog while it's down. For God's sake - without Russia I'd be sitting in freaking Nazi France right now! Proof of how they bled themselves dry to beat the Nazi's - the Russians have done that time and time again. They are a government and military that LITERALLY DISMANTLED AND REMOVED MANUFACTURING BUILDINGS DURNG WW2 in their towns so the Nazi's wouldn't capture them. The Russians are a force to reckon with - it's something all these political think tanks knew and know. But what about EUROPE? Where are those policy makers? what have they all been doing since the 1990's? All figured once the war was done they didn't need to have an underlying strategy for any Russian aggression to rear its head bc you know - "the cold war was over". The strategy is NATO ie. the US will fix it. There was maybe a decade where Russia was ok and Americans and Europeans could visit and we could all "be normal". I don't think for a single second that all this was a surprise that Ukraine was shady and Russia was going to be what Russia has been and I'm pretty sure clearly signaled it was. China has over 1 BILLION PEOPLE. They have people and distance on their side. THAT WILL BE EXPENSIVE AMERICA. And we have to ask ourselves - will EUROPE BE THERE IN THE PACIFIC AS WELL?
👏👏👏
100% correct
Stephens trots out the failed dominos theory that got us into every conflict since Korea. It’s been a lie every time. Bret also claimed that victory is a decisive defeat of the Russian military. Guess what Bret 1 trillion dollars won’t defeat the Russians militarily because Ukraine doesn’t have the manpower to do it there is only one country that might have that ability and it’s not certain that we could even pull it off. So taking his theory to its logical conclusion is American boys dying in Ukraine. This is exactly what happened in Vietnam. The French were bankrolled by the United States in the war they engaged in during the 50’s only to turn tail and run. (The French will always run). So it was dead Americans way more than dead Frenchmen for another decade in that failure of the domino theory. All HoChiMinh wanted was to have a sovereign state free of the French he even adopted Jeffersonian principles but the CIA lied to Truman (see the connection?) about HoChiMinh even though we funded him during WWII as he fought against the Japanese. We have once again backed a corrupt government that is illegitimate. We engineered a coup in 2014 to overthrow a democratically elect president and now the President has just suspended elections so he is a tyrant now. We held our 1864 national elections during our civil war. Nobody will ever tell you why it’s in our national security interest to waste treasure and then blood in Ukraine.
Yes! Truth gets in the way of their narrative don't you know! Stop the endless Wars. Dismantle the CIA and Declassified all the war documents immediately!
Korea is the one success story of dozens. The hope is to capture lighting in a bottle twice.
How so? Korea is still split and we still have troops there defending what S Korea should do for itself.
So you’d rather just have Korea being ALL North Korea? Korea is the single success story neolibs and neocons always point to as the success and why we must try again and I agree it was the one success. Everywhere else is an abject failure.
The French - THE ELITES IN PARIS - imo would sign on the dotted line today to give away whatever amount of Ukraine to Russia to keep the peace - for them.
Not true. On Feb 16th France signed an aid package agreement with Ukraine to give them $3.23 Billion in military aid and weapons, and including in the agreement for France to work to get Ukraine admitted to NATO. Try to keep up.
Theres been so much snark in everyone today. Perhaps is that we all cannot adult. Good on Ann for using Google. But lets see the tally- shall we? - enemy at my back door...3.23 billion and another stick poking the dog 2 years INTO the war. Looks like too little too late. Versus well over 100 billion and a desire for ANOTHER 60 plus billion from the US - from across the Atlantic Ocean. Whoop. Dee. Doo. France. How's that Nato fund coming along?
You accused the French and I responded. Maybe you should google before you type instead of after.
Chicken feed.
And the US is growing in another 60 billion. France should be putting in at least 6 billion.
When it comes right down to it, we don’t have the money. I am not interested in my grandchildren trying to claw their way out of this pit of debt we are leaving them. That is totally aside from the fact we baited Putin into this war and highly discouraged any negotiations to end it before it became a blood bath.
I disagree with those that say Bret Stephens jumped the shark. He is thoughtful and I appreciate his sentiments.
Here is what virtually no one can explain to me.
Putin is a horrible person. As horrible as any other tyrant in human history? Maybe, but certainly there are worse. Putin would make the top 20.
At the same time, can't I recognize that Ukraine is an incredibly corrupt government and I don't want to spend money propping them up without being accused of being a Nazi?
I feel horribly for the Ukrainian citizen. At the same time, strategically I see know reason economically or militarily to prop the country up. Does it change things if Putin runs it or a corrupt Ukrainian government?
A lot of the hate I see in Europe and other foreign countries for Trump has roots in the fact that the US spends a lot of money in their country when they should be fending for themselves. During and Post WW2, the US built the roads they drive on and rebuilt the buildings they live in. The US has been their protector militarily. When was the last all Italian built fighter plane which is ground breakingly innovative you remember being built? Where is the revolution in energy production in the EU? Where is the general engineering innnovation? Why is the center of development/innovation in SF/Bay Area and not in Brussels? America certainly has lower math and science standardized test scores.
The hate for Trump is more about envy and jealousy so they lash out and call him "Hitler", yet they want America to foot the bill to get rid of the Russian Hitler, Putin.
Time for them to get out of their teenage years and fend for themselves.
Bravo.
Spot on
Yes!
From the looks of it, if Putin conquers Ukraine we get another Holodomor.
The thing I know is the only way Ukraine wins is if Europe and/or the US send in troops. Maybe in the form of pilots? Russia with its population being 4X that of Ukraine can simply out last them, so it begs the question. Why are they not trying to negotiate the end now before another million people are killed? More money alone just means more dead bodies.
What I find shocking about Bret Stevens is how easy he makes it seem. That Ukranian is going to sweep through the mind fields against an entrenched enemy with superior numbers. Stevens has become such a pompous ass since moving from the WSJ to the New York Times, but a man has to keep his job.
As a realist, Ukraine tried to breach those lines this year and failed miserably. They are chewing through a generation of its best, and for what end? To recapture four territories that are pro-Russian in outlook. It's time to start working toward a deal where Russia keeps the territories won and Ukraine enters into a pact with NATO or the EU.
I highly doubt Russia will move toward Poland or the Baltics, but if they do, we must have a debate if we all want to risk the potential of all dying to stop it. I appreciate hearing Elbride Colby's thoughts, especially the ones that hurt Bret's feelings. This is serious business, and guys who write for a newspaper are not people I respect when it comes to getting a good outcome. Great interview, Bari.
No NATO... that was the line Putin doesn't want crossed.
We do not need Ukraine in NATO.
And yet we just admitted Finland and Sweden (Hungary just agreed to Sweden this past week, so that will be finished shortly) to NATO. Putin threatened Finland with all kinds of shit if they dared to join NATO, but they did it anyway because they saw the danger of not belonging when Russia invaded Ukraine. So now Russia’s border with NATO is double what it was before the invasion and it’s all Russia/Putin’s fault.
Big f*cking mistake to give NATO status to Finland. Same w/ Baltic States. These countries are not in USA vital national interests, they border Russia directly and if attacked by Russia in future, invoke Article 5, which could lead to WW3. DEFCON level permanently increased due to unnecessary NATO expansion.
You mean decreased, I suppose? DEFCON 1 is nukes. DEFCON 5 is nothing happening. Finland can do what it wants. Sweden too. They made a sober assessment of the situation and applied to join.
Oops. I missed this one when I complemented your civility elsewhere. My bad.
Exactly, he breezily comments about taking land from 2014 back although Russia has plainly stated wmds would be on the table . Has anyone gamed this out?
That is a moving argument. I can't decide if I agree or not, but I appreciate the insight onto the gentlemen I heard from in this podcast.
Definitely an excellent interview.
One of the major reasons Russia invaded was because Ukraine crossed a red line by wanting to be in NATO and the west didn’t shut that down immediately. So that definitely would be a stupid idea to have that be a negotiation item.
And yet, because Russia invaded Ukraine, both Finland and Sweden have joined NATO, which not only doubles Russia’s border with NATO, but also makes the entire Baltic Sea controlled by NATO countries (except for tiny sliver near St Petersburg). So if Russia didn’t want its border with NATO expanded, they made a colossal mistake invading Ukraine.
Hey Ann, do you think Georgia should join NATO too? They were invited to consider entry before Ukraine was.
Yes. Georgia and Moldova both.
How about Oz, Neverland and Gilligan’s Island?
Leave Gilligan out of this. 😂😂
Its part of the negotiation process, the war has to stop at some point. What are your terms to end it?
"I highly doubt Russia will move toward Poland or the Baltics, but if they do, we must have a debate if we all want to risk the potential of all dying to stop it." - well that is reassuring. People in those countries have a different view because they have been living next to Russia and hearing is sword-rattling on a near daily basis. No one in Poland was surprised by the TC interview. We've been hearing the same thing for at least 16 years or so. Poland has been telling Europe to up its military game for years and now they are finally listening.
So, I imagine when Pootin' does invade another country, we will hear on a thread like this that once again it is not in the US interests to do anything about it. Poltroonery.
If they move towards Poland, Poland will hand them their lunch. That is not happening. Poland is not Ukraine. They are heavily armed with western weapons and are already trained to use them.
I really get a kick out of the notion that running out of ammunition in Ukraine will send a strong message to the Millenarian Chinese Communist Psychopaths that will get them to back off of their 1,000 year plan for global dominance.
The short answer is no.
Send some speech writers and turn everything else over to the Europeans. It's in their backyard, and if it really bothers them, they will do something about it.
If lots of us weren’t descendants of Europeans, we’d care about Europe as much as we care about Africa.
The Pacific is America’s future, not the North Atlantic. South Korea’s GDP has grown 80x since 1964. Not 80% - 80X, as in 8,000%. Japan looks like it is finally thriving again after digging its way out of the ‘80’s economic crater.
We can’t turn our back on Europe, but I don’t get our obsession with propping up economies and alliances to counter an existential threat that ceased to exist as it was known almost 40 years ago. Almost 2 generations. Sheesh.
What about 2 years to help Europe get back on its feet militarily? It pulled its weight during the cold war and started to demilitarise at about the same time the US started to change its military structure to fight terrorism.
Europe has not pulled their weight, They have underfunded their own defense for 60 years.
I think it's rude and disgusting that Ms Weiss says "the collapse of courage and moral clarity, if you want to use that term, I use it advisedly, among a terrifying number of Republicans." We republicans, we Americans, we Patriots are just sick of people dying for no reason and done with our money used in corrupt fashion! The Ukrainians cannot win this war that's the reality and everybody who actually looks at it from a lens of reality knows that, no matter how much money we throw at it. And why are we so worried about other people's borders when we can't even keep our own borders safe, when terrorists and God knows who else are slinking into our country and making it unsafe for our citizens! There's only so much money in the pot and to keep printing it and printing it is not the answer to a healthy economy. So we should collapse our economy to save a country on the other side of the world while leaving our country open to Invasion and Chaos? I think our "courage and moral character" is doing just fine! How many Democrats do you see in the military fighting for the freedoms and Liberties of this country? No most of them are Republicans who are full of "courage" and love their country! That's a fact look it up Bari Weiss!! And in terms of our "moral clarity", who is it that wants people to die for an unwinning cause? Literally they cannot beat Russia and we don't have the money to keep throwing at them while an entire generation of Ukrainianian men and women are dead! What happens to the Ukrainian culture when there's nothing left of it? We should be trying to negotiate peace in the region! And stop pushing Ukraine NATO inclusion. Would you want enemy weapons on your border? Look what happened in Cuba! We need to stop creating all these wars around the world just to feed the War Machine. There are much more "moral" ways for America to earn a living and to fill our coffers and to become the Beacon of Light for the world again! We can't help anyone if we have collapsed into chaos and economic destruction. Stop the flow of money now as it's only a corrupt way of filling the pockets of the Democrat swamp and Rinos anyway and you know it Bari Weiss!
Yeah, Bari does get a bit full of herself. "Courage"? Pick up a weapon, Bari, stand a post.
Are you aware Bari that the vast majority of Republicans support aid to Israel and Israel's defense into Gaza? And that an alarming number of Democrats oppose Israel's self-defense or merely oppose Israel.
You should not expose yourself, Bari Weiss. What's that old say about seeming a fool while remaining quiet or speaking and removing all doubt. Think about it Bari Weiss.
I think she still gets a lot of her opinions from the guardian.
Yup , it’s not a rational argument to pour 60 billion into a war that is being lost . We need negotiations and a ceasefire to save what’s left of Ukraine
Dems are handing out years of jail for people who took selfies yet it's the GOP voters who lost moral clarity.
Perfectly said. Where is the moral clarity and courage behind continuing to have Ukrainians slaughtered in an unwinnable war?
Sorry it's the BS dude pun intended that is wrong about the courage and moral clarity of Republicans today.
Stephens states, "...he is speaking to a society, to a country, or to at least a demographic that has lost its ability to think of the possibility of American success." The irony of a NY Times reporter.
I’d like to see Brett explain how great the 1619 project is
Where has the $113 Billion to Ukraine gone? Given the long history of rampant corruption there I am worried we are just supporting more corrupt oligarchs. We seem to do that in every "necessary war". (Remember Afghanistan?)
Zurich, Switzerland for 200 Alex.
It's going to US arms manufacturers and Black Rock. It's always about the money.
And also trickles down to your 401K/IRA. MIC has got us by the balls.
"Bret worries that the world is on the precipice of World War III."
"$100 billion isn’t what it used to be"
Too late Bret. How many countries are already directly or indirectly involved? All of NATO, China, Korea, Russia, and who knows how many more. Call it a World War or not, the key military players are all there.
If $100 billion is just pocket change, then let the other NATO members pick up the tab.
Support for this war is waning in the US because there is no end in sight, and we already have more debt than we can reasonably deal with. If there were clear objectives, and NATO members were at the forefront of the effort and putting in maximal effort, then most Americans would continue to support it. But when NATO members don't even honor their financial commitments, and no NATO boots are on the ground, it is clear that this war could easily be lost. And what is the point of spending billions of dollars when you get the same result by spending nothing?
Stephen’s wrote his book in 2015. Any day now it will come true.
NATO and the UN are a joke. Not sure what the point of either is except to have a bunch of international bureaucrats giving speeches and acting like they have agreements and alliances that work.
After the USSR collapsed NATO became another over paid bureaucracy (military in this case) looking for a reason to justify its existence. Kept pushing buttons till it got one.
NATO employees live like kings in Brussels - doing what? Lifetime employment shuffling papers. How much - in dollars - does US spend on this?
At first, I thought in terms of WW2 and the dominoe theory. Then I thought we can’t fund ourselves and yet we are expected to fund Ukraine? Europe doesn’t seem that concerned. And there is the corruption matter. And then I think of our border.
Yeah, the politicians have been ignoring the coming debt crisis for decades while they act like America is invincible and should police the world.
Isn't it interesting that the amount the US has given and is considering further in aid to the Ukraine is well publicized. But have you ever seen any numbers about the EU or NATO countries other than what Trump states about deadbeat countries that don't honor their commitments?
Just this week I saw for the first time where the progressives in the democratic party are now openly admitting that they think open borders for the US is appropriate and that anyone showing up at the border claiming political persecution must be admitted into the US. So at least now I know that what Biden is doing is very intentional, and his hogwash about not being able to do anything about the southern border because of the republicans is just another Biden lie.
Currently there are roughly 35,000 homeless veterans in America; why don’t we take care of these folks before we go helping someone who has never put him or herself in harm’s way for our freedoms.
Absolutely! No Veteran left behind!!
Wouldn’t it be nice if we acted that way? I don’t know when it started, but veterans of Afghanistan and Iraq have been treated so poorly. $60B more to Ukraine, but we’ll probably cut the VA’s budget.
No they are using the VAs budget to help illegals now ahead of veterans.
The thing that stuck with me in this exchange was the discussion of the nostalgia for the international and domestic conditions of the 1990s, which seems to be a factor for many politicians, as well as the public at large. I suspect that many people don’t realize what an unusual time that was. The U.S. had no powerful international adversaries, and almost everyone thought that the world was on a peaceful trajectory that would involve significantly more international cooperation and lower defense commitments. But really, that period was an anomaly. The enemies of modern life have regained their energy and seem determined, again, to upset a world order that has generated unprecedented freedom and prosperity.
Yeah the good times, when we handed the keys to China and spent a decade going after wmds in Iraq and maintaining no fly zones, all the while evil eyes looked to New York and the towers
Not suggesting at all that they were “good times”. As you note, a number of bad things were brewing. But apart from some regional policing to preserve the Pax Americana, the risks were widely perceived to be part of a new epoch of lower military threats and expenses. That perception was clearly misguided, but since few adults bother learning much history anymore, our society finds it difficult to make valid historical comparisons.
Good point , to me sounds like we fumbled the ball in the 90’s
Yes, during the 1990’s the West’s Military Industrial Complex looked around and said ‘WTF do I justify the big Defense spending in now?’ They eventually found an adventure in Iraq. That one got old though, so now we have Ukraine.
Such a great point!