I was a college debater from 1955 to 1960 and then a judge. I really cannot countenance what our young people are now subject to. Go ahead with your own debate league and leave these anti-intellectuals to stew in their own bigoted juices. You don’t need them. Good young minds don’t need them. Our nation doesn’t need them. I wish you every success.
“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.” -Socrates
Ad hominem attacks are toward the person, not the idea. In all aspects of modern day life, the left has perfected the art of the ad hominem and made it part of the process. Curious young minds should not be exposed to this organization’s indoctrination. Participation is not just a waste of time, it is detrimental.
To be fair, Trump is pretty much an Ad Hominem attack personified. So, sadly the left does not have a monopoly on it.
I remember in speech class in college our teacher was pointing out the various fallacies and even back in the 90's I asked "When someone in the real world uses these, does anyone call them out? And if not, aren't you hindering us by limiting out tools to convince people?" I have hated Political debates ever since that class because all I see is a ocean of fallacies and no one calling them out.
There are easily found lists of logical fallacies. When I was teaching a high school law class, I encouraged the students to point out when their peers or I committed one or more. Boy, was that fun; and, sometimes personally very embarrassing. In that class, daily homework was a mandated hour of cable: a half hour of Fox and a half hour of MSNBC or CNN. Frankly, a class in basic legal principles morphed into finding fallacies and biases. Watching the morning classroom news battles was very entertaining. I'm in different classes now. I miss those days.
Trump attacked people , but he was always hitting back.... it’s definitely not the same thing as what the left does. There was not even anything to attack this kid on. There is nothing wrong with his tweet.
NAh, everyone thinks they are hitting back, leftists included. The person who says "I like starting trouble" is pretty rare. Much more common is "I'm a nice guy/girl, but I will fight back." We want justice for our neighbors and mercy for ourselves, and we all fight and imagine ourselves righteous. That is why forbearance and forgiveness are so very important.
Sid, I'd love to see some enterprising students take the bigoted bull by the horns and (very) publicly invite their judges to debate them. And on what subject? Censorship In The Public Sphere. Put the whole thing up on YouTube.
100% unlikely. People who know they are wrong and are purposely being manipulative and misleading know better than to put themselves into an actual debate
You’re assuming that there would, in fact, actually be a debate on “censorship.” There wouldn’t be; any more than Girolamo Savonarola would be able to debate the truth that the church of his time espoused. It’s beyond them to be able to debate what - to them - is immutable, unquestionable truth. To give any other view a forum is, to them, obvious heresy. And, of course, we all know what must be done to heretics.
Actually, I’m assuming that there would not be a debate. That it would not be likely sanctimonious judges, for precisely the reasons you described, would agree. Ideology bordering on religion need not be defended - perhaps since the very act of defending would force them to find logical reasons for its defense. Difficult to do when a belief system becomes an article of unblinking faith with no proof required.
My proposition was based solely on publicly exposing these judges as incapable of logically arguing their own position. And how cool would it be for intelligent students to do it..
BORROWING YOUR "REPLY" SID. MY COMMENTS BOX REMAINS BLOCKED.
I'm not sure we should remain hostage to communist /capitalist ping-pong thinking anymore. Both are controlled by blood thirsty 20th Century ideologues willing and able to hold the peoples of the world at nuclear gunpoint. After all, pretty is as pretty does. On the one hand the hidden CCP peoples rendition center and on the other the DNC/EU rigged game surveillance state being perped by the Davos crowd. They all go to dinner together. Only a fool would think Xi, Schwab, Gates and Fink aren't all disciples of the numbered account. Today, American's still unwilling to accept the truth/cover up of the Ukraine/China Biden connection might spend some time with the Michael Soussan book BACKSTABBING FOR BEGINNER'S which uncovered the political bribery and payoff piggies and perp's sucking down UNITED NATIONS Iraqi Food for Oil money worldwide. Billion's in American tax dollars stolen, again. Want to change it? Julian, Edward and the J/6 boy's and girl's didn't even get Vaseline.
What does this have to do with the assault on debate, free speech, youth and the American future? The useful idiot's on both side's are all unwitting apparatchik's for the same totalitarian grift. For the average American and European in realpolitik the words communist and capitalist don't mean anything anymore. The tactic's for repression are ideologically interchangeable. In the EU the attempted seizure's of farmland, thousands arrested and prosecuted for thought crimes, the German inform on your neighbor "snitch line". In America the feminist/DEI life cancellation machine, the tech platform/surveillance state list keeper, the DNC nod to the criminalization of citizenship. In China all the tactic's above, plus the bullet in the head. Tyranny by any other name is just as foul. In spiritual term's, it's perp's, all the way down.
We're American citizen's who live in a Constitutional Republic. Not communist's or capitalist's. (Do those two word's appear anywhere in the Constitution?) We are a PEOPLE fighting a world conspiracy to impoverish and reduce us to abject servitude. We live inside a hyperreality (psyop) based on a lie. A compromised top heavy bureaucratic surveillance monstrosity controlled by corrupt international financier's. That's why Mr. Fishback's phone call's/e-mails were ignored, why the marionette DNC talked over the top of Taibbi and Shellenberger at the Twitter File hearing's. It is the mad King George hubristic indifferent sterile narcissism of the new monarchy. Many of us will be starting out in evening but the change that will make the change will only happen when we change ourselves. Everything is exactly what it appears to be. It's not something else.
Reading both of Fishback's articles leaves me shaking me head in disbelief that such lunacy is so widespread. So accepted. His response of creating a rival organization built on sound principles is the good and proper solution. After reading this lunacy of the left you can also see an example of the lunacy of the right in this diatribe by MIke R. Sweeping generalization, ridiculous conspiracy theories and no noun left without it's own special adjective. Comment box blocked? Who could foresee that one coming?
There is no longer a "right" or "left" and I didn't describe any force in the equation not in play. You can call it anything you want but the house has rigged the game. This is no longer politic's it's pathology. It's self-interested open season on free speech, thought and the individual. The perp's will keep lining their pocket's and screaming over the top of human moral reason until they're stopped. These feature's on the subversion of and assault on free thought, idea's and debate are a perfect example's of one of many diseased tactic's employed by the would be monarchist's: Chaos wielding distortion and capture of the American national dialogue to prevent the conversation that will put human solutions on the table and create the future the world deserves.
If debaters are judged on ideology..telling them not to use the inoffensive terms like “Mr” or “ Miss” ! Then it is really a sad state of affairs ! And even going through their personal statements on social media is abominable and smacks of fascist censorship!
Yes , boycott the NSDA ! They certainly don’t seem to believe in free speech!
Good luck on sponsoring a real debate association!
Correct, but not enough. These revolutionary marxists are to be defeated in the idea battlefield... challenged, rebutted and defeated. The culture war is in hyper-speed mode. Leaving, public school for example, is a first step. Public funding of all education to be abolished. Period.
This is how insidious Marxism and leftists are. I am proud to be a capitalist. It is the ONLY economic system that enables people of all colors, backgrounds and gifts to succeed.
But Communism/Socialism does work. It just works for only a few people. Democratic Party Socialism works great for the Squad members who can run on their sex, race or other affiliation. Communism works great for Putin in Russia and an elite in Cuba - just not for the millions of people who live there - unless you ask Putin or the Cuban elite who will tell you how great it works. Sounds a lot like asking the NSDA how their system works too - their system works great for the NSDA elite and their judges.
Russia is no longer the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Not since 1991. And really, bone up on some Russia history. One of the reasons Vlad is in power now (and one of the less discussed reasons the US baited the Bear over Ukraine) is because he chased the Western neoliberal carpetbaggers out of Russia when they offered to "help" and started looting and pillaging former state held assets after the collapse. (And he helped usher the return of the Russian Orthodox Church. Another biggie.)
It occurs to me that slavery--supported by the Democratic Party so strongly that it led to a Civil War--is all of a piece with this mentality: "I'm better than you so you owe me your labor."
Yet more proof that the Democrats have not really changed; they've just changed tactics.
And one needs to be unafraid to state that. And that the United States of America and our Constitution is a force for good, not evil, in the world. And the last bastion against one-world totalitarianism. If we have the courage to keep it that way.
It’s doesn’t look as though we can Bruce. The evil party (Democrats) are in control, the constitution in tatters and the DoJ shredded so I wonder which way is out of this mess. Courage is a start getting rid of Dems is even better so let’s get moving we don’t have long to go!
Your preference for any economic or political system is irrelevant to the discussion. The point of the article is to allow open dialog and debate, and not to let one’s personal beliefs override the ability of these kids to make rational, persuasive arguments.
I find it ironic that in the discussion about free and open debate the author felt compelled to identify his “bias” for capitalism. It simply illustrates the power of leftists to induce those of us who disagree with them to justify ourselves.
Capitalism is far and away the best system for allocation of resources and creation of wealth. It does have downsides though. The “consumer culture” creates a great deal of anxiety for individuals if they allow it, “keeping up with the Jones”. Without a clear Christian ethos (which we have mostly, if not entirely, lost) the capitalist system can become all about greed and money.
What makes capitalism work is the fact that if you’re an able-bodied young person and you refuse to work, you suffer a fair amount of agony. It’s because of that agony that the whole economic system works.
Marxism killed a hundred million people in the 20th century and some have the unmitigated gall to where the title, "Marxist" as a badge of honor.
Capitalism lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in the 20th century. And supporters of that system are, in too many instances, expected to apologize for that?
Cats living with dogs... up is down... good is bad...
Same old story. The progressive left are fascist totalitarians. The question is what to do about it? Perhaps creating a new organization that encourages real, open, fair debate?
I’m not sure about that Maureen. If a mass exodus hasn't already occurred what's the chances? Winning isn’t the only reason for debates, or anything else in life. When I was a freshman in high school, we had a really bad football team. I think we only won two games. I suppose if the biased judges highlighted in this article were officiating our games, they might have limited our opponents to three downs to make it “fair”. Even if we had won because of that, we wouldn’t have felt like winners. My point is, work hard, prepare yourself well and play YOUR game. And if that means ignoring rules set by some petty judge, do it. Medals and trophies aren’t always indicative of the best performance. Most people know that, and they are the ones that count.
BTW, with a new coach and players elevated to starting roles, we went undefeated in my sophomore year.
The point of the article is the rules are arbitrary unlike football where the rules are fixed and known not only to the officials, but anyone who watches the game. If the game is rigged and the subject changes from the official debate topic to personal attacks, the judge’s role is to keep to the topic, not join in. It’s scary how many people have been exposed as enthusiastic censors of other people’s thoughts.
Tim, how motivated would your football players have been knowing that the referees were going to spot the opponents a three touchdown lead because the refs didn’t like the color of your team’s jerseys? Your arguments make sense if the game isn’t rigged, but the debate game clearly is.
I appreciate what you’re saying, but to continue my analogy, we knew the chances of winning my freshman year were low to none because the other teams were more experienced and better prepared. Still, we competed, and that competition helped prepare us for success. Unless the first utterance of language deemed verboten by a biased judge results in calling the debate, I say debate on, and ignore the arbitrary constraints. It seems to me that doing anything less is acknowledging you’ve already been defeated.
Thing is, Timothy, you lost for a legitimate reason: because your team wasn't good enough, not because the refs changed the rules mid-pass. The refs didn't throw the game to your opponent because your QB once Tweeted, "God I hate green uniforms." The refs let you both compete fairly, and the best team won. The next year, when you were better prepared with the new coach, etc., you won the "debate" under the same set of fair and neutrally enforced rules.
As it should be.
"Unless the first utterance of language deemed verboten by a biased judge results in calling the debate ..."
This seems to be the case with all the judges named here. I see no reason for a debate team to continue under those circumstances. It doesn't teach them to compete, it teaches them that bullies call the shots.
The coach should tell the team what's going on, ask the kids if they want to reward the bullies or fight them with 1A free speech. If the latter, then announce to the auditorium you're leaving because of judicial bullying, lead the team onto the public sidewalk, protest the system then and there to demand that the system become un-rigged, and make sure the kids post it to social media.
Bullies hate sunlight. I believe enough of those embarrassing walkouts would change the system for the better, and the kids would learn a valuable lesson about using the Constitution to win the "game."
Did you read the article? It’s not “some” petty judge…it’s the ethos of the whole organization. As soon as a debater expresses an unauthorized opinion they are met with ad hominem attacks and disqualified. Forget about presenting a well-reasoned argument. Just parrot the politically approved jargon.
That’s not debating. It’s a memorization contest, in this case, a Social Justice boot camp. Unless one has aspirations to work for mainstream media or run for Congress, I say find another hobby.
So you've worked hard and prepared yourself and ready to play your brand of football. Then the other team shows up in bathing suits and the refs are actually lifeguards. I don't see any chance for victory Tim, moral or otherwise.
So if things are broken, don't try to get them fixed, just keep using the broken system? That attitude is exactly why things are broken. It eventually leads to the "They were just doing their job" mentality.
No self-respecting woman should ever have entered the same pool -- much less the same locker room -- as a man. And that's a far more clear-cut call for a mass exodus -- that did not happen.
I agree. Who died and made these bigoted assholes God? What a bunch of hateful, self righteous, dipshits. These narrow minded morons are telling these young people believe the way I do or lose. This mentality denies the definition of debate. They need a debate on the value of the First Amendment. That would bring the cockroaches out into the light. I have said all along the Democrat party is the party of evil, the party of tyranny. To be fair the Republicans are a bunch of bumbling jerks.
Hitler and Stalin would love the debate judges. They fall right in line with these brutal dictators.
We are. Here. The Twitter Files wouldn't have happened without subscription journalism. Nor the congressional hearing's. It scared them. Again. Mr. Fishback received no response to his inquiry and the DNC operatives did their best to castigate and silence Matt and Mike because we are all shouting into an echo chamber manned by pay me operative's. The more light truth speaker's can shine, the more solid we become, the weaker they are.
What scares me is these young people are supposedly learning to use skills that will, in the future, help them in leadership positions. I don’t want my country’s future leaders learning how to suppress ideas.
“Its famous alumni include Oprah Winfrey, and Supreme Court justices Neil Gorsuch and Ketanji Brown Jackson.”
One of these people was selected for a position of immense power over the everyday lives of all Americans based upon their race and sex, as explicitly stated by the president of the United States. Perhaps this person if highly competent and capable, but the stated reason for her selection was specifically her race and sex. And the first person on the list managed to attain immense success in life despite overwhelming obstacles, demonstrating that tokenism is not a requirement for success.
Yes, it is the point. Social Justice activism expresses itself by preventing other people from speaking. Once the principle that “speech is violence” takes over, anything we have to do to shut up “harmful” speech becomes justified. See how that works? Suddenly the bullies are taking the moral high ground, and whoever disagrees is a bigot, fascist, etc.
This approach to thought and speech is purposefully antithetical to the First Amendment. In fact, the First Amendment, and all the founding documents of the country, are in the shredder. When the judge refers to herself as a Maoist Marxist, this is not hyperbole. If we care about the future of democracy, we should take her at her word.
Maybe for this generation. Funny thing about freedom though…the darn thing keeps resurfacing! Someone somewhere has an idea, and before you know it, it’s spreading.
Tyranny always squelches Freedom. Until it doesn’t. I’m an ApocalypOptimist. We’re headed to the crapper, but eventually someone will climb out. I have to take the long view because the short view makes me drink too much.
The supporters of censoring arguments in favor of woke ideology can never defend their positions. They are cowards, and they should be treated with disdain.
This is a classic technique of authoritarians...”We will listen to anything you have to say...as long as it is within the parameters of which we agree to listen.”
This has the dual effect of both re-enforcing the tactics of the young, would-be authoritarians and inducing the young free thinkers into self-censorship.
When everything is about identity, all thinking stops, and a mind virus sets in, as I describe here...
Ironically, this current NSDA, not Mr Fishback's alternative, is teaching kids EXACTLY the skills they need to get ahead fast in today's world: 1. Start by digging up dirt on social media, 2. Never address your opponents argument directly (or at all), instead make sure the focus remains ad hominem, 3. Always argue from the left, 4. The more you say 'phobia' the more you win.
Please tell me I’m not imagining things. I went to the link provided to Lila Lavender and cannot believe what I am reading. This is fake news, right? No one can really be a debate judge while also proclaiming to be a f*cking MAOIST? Do these people really exist or is this AI f*cking with us?
The number of judges with this stance is important. This is blatant discrimination and bias. Therefore knowing how many of the 47,000+ judges share this position matters. Any ideas on that?
Given at least 24 warned about mentioning anything which could be perceived as "transphobic" (such as using Mr. or Miss.) and there are a couple hundred judges it could be between 15%-20%.
Well, it’s apparently the dominant viewpoint (If if were not, that level of stunning poison would not be tolerated anywhere in the organization.). It’s dominant enough that the National finals were judged by someone who clearly holds exactly these extreme views. I’d say that nowhere in the judge community is anyone pushing back on this. Therefore, effectively, ALL of them support this.
I was thinking the same thing - who's dumbass ides was it to allow (or encouraged?) these judges to even create these pages...WHY? Their positions on anything are completely irrelevant to a competitive debate. That organization needs to implode in flames!
I was a fan of Che Guevara and Castro at the age of 15. Idealistic and reasonably intelligent. I expect kids to be like this but not fully functioning adults; escpecially those responsible to adjudicate on debates.
This is so sad. My son debated for his high school team for four years and in his senior year was co-captain. He learned many important skills as a result of this experience, including how to think logically, research an issue and put together a cogent argument. There are life skills that have helped him in his career. I am so glad that my children didn't experience what is occurring today as described in this article but I feel sorry for those high school students who live in fear for expressing views other than the personal views of the judge and also need to worry about being subjected to personal attacks. Debate has turned into a farce.
My son competed 4 years for a nationally recognized debate team of a top academic HS. He learned the most from debating and it has been the foundation of a successful professional career. This was only 10-15 years ago. There was no hint of this authoritarianism then - simply a rigorous competition that required hours of preparation each week.
It is amazing how the takeover of institutions occurred so rapidly. As they say, “it happens gradually and then suddenly.”
This effort to start a new, parallel debate society should be a model now for what to do about this totalitarianism. Reforming institutions from within will not work unless they are getting undermined at the same time by parallel institutions able to offer a real refuge and alternative. Maybe call it the Committees of Correspondence movement.
Won't work as long as radical Democrats control the federal budget and directly fund the most extremist leftists they can, which is how we got here in the first place.
Remember the trillions of dollars of COVID stimmy money? We don't even know how many hundreds of billions went to promoting and funding these extreme leftists.
I am an active NSDA Coach and this year was the first year my students were able to attend the National Tournament because NSDA granted us our own District. Our district consists of Modern Orthodox Jewish students from Yeshiva High Schools around the country. Prior to this year, we were precluded from competing at Nationals as qualifying tournaments were on the Sabbath. NSDA granted us a district to correct this problem and we ended up sending 16 students from NY, NJ and FL to Nats. Our district can be found at www.citrononline.org.
I and our male students and even our judges proudly wore our kippas at the tournament. We also made it very clearly known that we are a pro-Israel Jews. Personally, I saw no negativity to me and my students.
I also witnessed and judged rounds, this year, debaters from around the world tackle difficult topics with zero perceived self-censorship.
With that all being said, I am CERTAIN there are judges who's paradigms are biased. I also personally think these judges should NOT be allowed to judge rounds. However, I would want to know their bias up front, in their paradigm, so I can take two actions:
1) Not hire them for our District and thanks to this series of articles we will be screening paradigms carefully
2) Be able to challenge a ballot based on bias of the judges through the proper channels at NSDA.
We plan to run over 20 tournaments in our district next year and I will personally take all measure to screen out biased judges. I think we will need other districts to commit to the same rules.
I wish you all the success - supporting legitimate debate is a powerful approach, whether it’s from inside the infected organization, as you are doing, or from the outside, as Incubate Debate is doing.
I think the more powerful your debaters become outside your own district, the harder you’ll feel the unfair bias, but I absolutely admire your commitment to support reasoned discourse.
They should rename the NSDA the National Subversion and Demoralization Association. Good reminder why it’s best to stay anon if you want to post spicy takes. My pseudonym warned us - can you reason with a demoralized person? https://yuribezmenov.substack.com/p/how-to-reason-with-a-demoralized
If you can’t win at something, no matter your efforts, then you change the rules in your favor or quit and disparage the event’s value entirely! This is a classic progressive left tactic. They have little to no interest in the actual debate and all its merits…unless it advance their ideologies and/or agendas. This isolationism of thought will be the downfall of our great society! So sad and so anti-American in its nature. It is exactly the type of “thought-control” our fore-fathers were fearful could destroy our chance at a safe and peaceful republic for all types of people to experience life, liberty and happiness!! It’s truly heartbreaking to watch our nation withering slowly in front of us!
Keep up the good work without Americans like you we have no chance.
Thank you for reporting on this extensively and shining a light on this upside down situation. This is right out of “1984.” Debate is the place where we’ll thought out arguments inform and educate. Once again the woke agenda tries to pull the rug out from under logic. Keep fighting the good fight for our futures and our children. And remember to vote every single woke politician out of their jobs.
"A few critics have pointed out that my piece was written out of self-interest. That all I was trying to do is publicize my own organization." - Excuse my ignorance, but is the current system of high school debate (NSDA) free? Are there fees? Do the judges get paid or receive a stipend? How is the current system not benefitting the organization and organizers? How is the CURRENT system not one that has the interests of the existing organizers/admins/judges at heart?
They are super good at making people defend themselves when they shouldn't have to, but refuse to engage in their own BS. When you control the media, I guess you don't have to
I was a college debater from 1955 to 1960 and then a judge. I really cannot countenance what our young people are now subject to. Go ahead with your own debate league and leave these anti-intellectuals to stew in their own bigoted juices. You don’t need them. Good young minds don’t need them. Our nation doesn’t need them. I wish you every success.
“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.” -Socrates
Ad hominem attacks are toward the person, not the idea. In all aspects of modern day life, the left has perfected the art of the ad hominem and made it part of the process. Curious young minds should not be exposed to this organization’s indoctrination. Participation is not just a waste of time, it is detrimental.
If formal debaters do not know that an ad hominem argument is a basic logic fallacy then there is no debate standard
Yet, young adults have to learn. Sheltering them from what’s being done to them is worse.
This isn't sheltering, it's intimidation.
The intellectual dishonesty on display is appalling.
To be fair, Trump is pretty much an Ad Hominem attack personified. So, sadly the left does not have a monopoly on it.
I remember in speech class in college our teacher was pointing out the various fallacies and even back in the 90's I asked "When someone in the real world uses these, does anyone call them out? And if not, aren't you hindering us by limiting out tools to convince people?" I have hated Political debates ever since that class because all I see is a ocean of fallacies and no one calling them out.
There are easily found lists of logical fallacies. When I was teaching a high school law class, I encouraged the students to point out when their peers or I committed one or more. Boy, was that fun; and, sometimes personally very embarrassing. In that class, daily homework was a mandated hour of cable: a half hour of Fox and a half hour of MSNBC or CNN. Frankly, a class in basic legal principles morphed into finding fallacies and biases. Watching the morning classroom news battles was very entertaining. I'm in different classes now. I miss those days.
Trump attacked people , but he was always hitting back.... it’s definitely not the same thing as what the left does. There was not even anything to attack this kid on. There is nothing wrong with his tweet.
NAh, everyone thinks they are hitting back, leftists included. The person who says "I like starting trouble" is pretty rare. Much more common is "I'm a nice guy/girl, but I will fight back." We want justice for our neighbors and mercy for ourselves, and we all fight and imagine ourselves righteous. That is why forbearance and forgiveness are so very important.
Rosie o donnell is the example that comes to mind. I recall a lot of other examples that fall in that bucket.
The dude was pre-attacking DeSantis before DS was even running. No, he is not always defending.
"an ocean of fallacies" Yup!
Totally agree, littleoldMD!
Sid, I'd love to see some enterprising students take the bigoted bull by the horns and (very) publicly invite their judges to debate them. And on what subject? Censorship In The Public Sphere. Put the whole thing up on YouTube.
Do you think any of these judges would sign on?
Not very likely.
100% unlikely. People who know they are wrong and are purposely being manipulative and misleading know better than to put themselves into an actual debate
You’re assuming that there would, in fact, actually be a debate on “censorship.” There wouldn’t be; any more than Girolamo Savonarola would be able to debate the truth that the church of his time espoused. It’s beyond them to be able to debate what - to them - is immutable, unquestionable truth. To give any other view a forum is, to them, obvious heresy. And, of course, we all know what must be done to heretics.
Actually, I’m assuming that there would not be a debate. That it would not be likely sanctimonious judges, for precisely the reasons you described, would agree. Ideology bordering on religion need not be defended - perhaps since the very act of defending would force them to find logical reasons for its defense. Difficult to do when a belief system becomes an article of unblinking faith with no proof required.
My proposition was based solely on publicly exposing these judges as incapable of logically arguing their own position. And how cool would it be for intelligent students to do it..
Keep in mind, you are talking about 21st Century High School Debate Judges. Not exactly the highest echelon of intellect and accomplishment.
But coming more prevalent on a daily basis
Our poor world...
BORROWING YOUR "REPLY" SID. MY COMMENTS BOX REMAINS BLOCKED.
I'm not sure we should remain hostage to communist /capitalist ping-pong thinking anymore. Both are controlled by blood thirsty 20th Century ideologues willing and able to hold the peoples of the world at nuclear gunpoint. After all, pretty is as pretty does. On the one hand the hidden CCP peoples rendition center and on the other the DNC/EU rigged game surveillance state being perped by the Davos crowd. They all go to dinner together. Only a fool would think Xi, Schwab, Gates and Fink aren't all disciples of the numbered account. Today, American's still unwilling to accept the truth/cover up of the Ukraine/China Biden connection might spend some time with the Michael Soussan book BACKSTABBING FOR BEGINNER'S which uncovered the political bribery and payoff piggies and perp's sucking down UNITED NATIONS Iraqi Food for Oil money worldwide. Billion's in American tax dollars stolen, again. Want to change it? Julian, Edward and the J/6 boy's and girl's didn't even get Vaseline.
What does this have to do with the assault on debate, free speech, youth and the American future? The useful idiot's on both side's are all unwitting apparatchik's for the same totalitarian grift. For the average American and European in realpolitik the words communist and capitalist don't mean anything anymore. The tactic's for repression are ideologically interchangeable. In the EU the attempted seizure's of farmland, thousands arrested and prosecuted for thought crimes, the German inform on your neighbor "snitch line". In America the feminist/DEI life cancellation machine, the tech platform/surveillance state list keeper, the DNC nod to the criminalization of citizenship. In China all the tactic's above, plus the bullet in the head. Tyranny by any other name is just as foul. In spiritual term's, it's perp's, all the way down.
We're American citizen's who live in a Constitutional Republic. Not communist's or capitalist's. (Do those two word's appear anywhere in the Constitution?) We are a PEOPLE fighting a world conspiracy to impoverish and reduce us to abject servitude. We live inside a hyperreality (psyop) based on a lie. A compromised top heavy bureaucratic surveillance monstrosity controlled by corrupt international financier's. That's why Mr. Fishback's phone call's/e-mails were ignored, why the marionette DNC talked over the top of Taibbi and Shellenberger at the Twitter File hearing's. It is the mad King George hubristic indifferent sterile narcissism of the new monarchy. Many of us will be starting out in evening but the change that will make the change will only happen when we change ourselves. Everything is exactly what it appears to be. It's not something else.
Reading both of Fishback's articles leaves me shaking me head in disbelief that such lunacy is so widespread. So accepted. His response of creating a rival organization built on sound principles is the good and proper solution. After reading this lunacy of the left you can also see an example of the lunacy of the right in this diatribe by MIke R. Sweeping generalization, ridiculous conspiracy theories and no noun left without it's own special adjective. Comment box blocked? Who could foresee that one coming?
There is no longer a "right" or "left" and I didn't describe any force in the equation not in play. You can call it anything you want but the house has rigged the game. This is no longer politic's it's pathology. It's self-interested open season on free speech, thought and the individual. The perp's will keep lining their pocket's and screaming over the top of human moral reason until they're stopped. These feature's on the subversion of and assault on free thought, idea's and debate are a perfect example's of one of many diseased tactic's employed by the would be monarchist's: Chaos wielding distortion and capture of the American national dialogue to prevent the conversation that will put human solutions on the table and create the future the world deserves.
If debaters are judged on ideology..telling them not to use the inoffensive terms like “Mr” or “ Miss” ! Then it is really a sad state of affairs ! And even going through their personal statements on social media is abominable and smacks of fascist censorship!
Yes , boycott the NSDA ! They certainly don’t seem to believe in free speech!
Good luck on sponsoring a real debate association!
Correct, but not enough. These revolutionary marxists are to be defeated in the idea battlefield... challenged, rebutted and defeated. The culture war is in hyper-speed mode. Leaving, public school for example, is a first step. Public funding of all education to be abolished. Period.
They're going to need money...
“I also admit I am a capitalist.”
This is how insidious Marxism and leftists are. I am proud to be a capitalist. It is the ONLY economic system that enables people of all colors, backgrounds and gifts to succeed.
Capitalism has been around for thousands of years ever since somebody set up a fruit stand and exchange an apple for three sea shells.
Capitalism works. Communism/Socialism doesn't. Pretty simple, eh? To bad the left hasn't figured that out yet and never will.
But Communism/Socialism does work. It just works for only a few people. Democratic Party Socialism works great for the Squad members who can run on their sex, race or other affiliation. Communism works great for Putin in Russia and an elite in Cuba - just not for the millions of people who live there - unless you ask Putin or the Cuban elite who will tell you how great it works. Sounds a lot like asking the NSDA how their system works too - their system works great for the NSDA elite and their judges.
As Orwell wrote, “all pigs are equal, just some are more equal than others.”
Slip of the tongue? "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."
Russia is no longer the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Not since 1991. And really, bone up on some Russia history. One of the reasons Vlad is in power now (and one of the less discussed reasons the US baited the Bear over Ukraine) is because he chased the Western neoliberal carpetbaggers out of Russia when they offered to "help" and started looting and pillaging former state held assets after the collapse. (And he helped usher the return of the Russian Orthodox Church. Another biggie.)
so neoliberalism is bad because state agents were corrupt and inefficient at distributing resources? lol
Yeah, Vlad's a fuckin' saint, the saviour of modern day Russia.
Nice strawman. That is not what I said at all.
Well you fooled me.
And Democrats have been around ever since the first cave man took away his neighbor’s deer, saying, “This is mine because you owe it to me!”
It occurs to me that slavery--supported by the Democratic Party so strongly that it led to a Civil War--is all of a piece with this mentality: "I'm better than you so you owe me your labor."
Yet more proof that the Democrats have not really changed; they've just changed tactics.
If anything, they've gotten worse.
Democrats changed tactics simply to get more votes & hence more power. Not because they really care. Their policies clearly don't work.
And one needs to be unafraid to state that. And that the United States of America and our Constitution is a force for good, not evil, in the world. And the last bastion against one-world totalitarianism. If we have the courage to keep it that way.
It’s doesn’t look as though we can Bruce. The evil party (Democrats) are in control, the constitution in tatters and the DoJ shredded so I wonder which way is out of this mess. Courage is a start getting rid of Dems is even better so let’s get moving we don’t have long to go!
Whether it's dems or republicans, if they support the status quo, they're not working for us.
Your preference for any economic or political system is irrelevant to the discussion. The point of the article is to allow open dialog and debate, and not to let one’s personal beliefs override the ability of these kids to make rational, persuasive arguments.
I find it ironic that in the discussion about free and open debate the author felt compelled to identify his “bias” for capitalism. It simply illustrates the power of leftists to induce those of us who disagree with them to justify ourselves.
Capitalism is far and away the best system for allocation of resources and creation of wealth. It does have downsides though. The “consumer culture” creates a great deal of anxiety for individuals if they allow it, “keeping up with the Jones”. Without a clear Christian ethos (which we have mostly, if not entirely, lost) the capitalist system can become all about greed and money.
A goal of “keep up with the Jones’” is a person choice. An act of free will is always supported by capitalism because it’s foundation is freedom.
Taking out $100k in loans to major in gender studies is also an act of free will
I argue that Socialism cannot work whatsoever without Capitalism somewhere.
What makes capitalism work is the fact that if you’re an able-bodied young person and you refuse to work, you suffer a fair amount of agony. It’s because of that agony that the whole economic system works.
Marxism killed a hundred million people in the 20th century and some have the unmitigated gall to where the title, "Marxist" as a badge of honor.
Capitalism lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in the 20th century. And supporters of that system are, in too many instances, expected to apologize for that?
Cats living with dogs... up is down... good is bad...
Same old story. The progressive left are fascist totalitarians. The question is what to do about it? Perhaps creating a new organization that encourages real, open, fair debate?
There should be a mass exodus of members from this thought control organization. And yes, start a new one. It’s the only solution.
I’m not sure about that Maureen. If a mass exodus hasn't already occurred what's the chances? Winning isn’t the only reason for debates, or anything else in life. When I was a freshman in high school, we had a really bad football team. I think we only won two games. I suppose if the biased judges highlighted in this article were officiating our games, they might have limited our opponents to three downs to make it “fair”. Even if we had won because of that, we wouldn’t have felt like winners. My point is, work hard, prepare yourself well and play YOUR game. And if that means ignoring rules set by some petty judge, do it. Medals and trophies aren’t always indicative of the best performance. Most people know that, and they are the ones that count.
BTW, with a new coach and players elevated to starting roles, we went undefeated in my sophomore year.
The point of the article is the rules are arbitrary unlike football where the rules are fixed and known not only to the officials, but anyone who watches the game. If the game is rigged and the subject changes from the official debate topic to personal attacks, the judge’s role is to keep to the topic, not join in. It’s scary how many people have been exposed as enthusiastic censors of other people’s thoughts.
Tim, how motivated would your football players have been knowing that the referees were going to spot the opponents a three touchdown lead because the refs didn’t like the color of your team’s jerseys? Your arguments make sense if the game isn’t rigged, but the debate game clearly is.
I appreciate what you’re saying, but to continue my analogy, we knew the chances of winning my freshman year were low to none because the other teams were more experienced and better prepared. Still, we competed, and that competition helped prepare us for success. Unless the first utterance of language deemed verboten by a biased judge results in calling the debate, I say debate on, and ignore the arbitrary constraints. It seems to me that doing anything less is acknowledging you’ve already been defeated.
Thing is, Timothy, you lost for a legitimate reason: because your team wasn't good enough, not because the refs changed the rules mid-pass. The refs didn't throw the game to your opponent because your QB once Tweeted, "God I hate green uniforms." The refs let you both compete fairly, and the best team won. The next year, when you were better prepared with the new coach, etc., you won the "debate" under the same set of fair and neutrally enforced rules.
As it should be.
"Unless the first utterance of language deemed verboten by a biased judge results in calling the debate ..."
This seems to be the case with all the judges named here. I see no reason for a debate team to continue under those circumstances. It doesn't teach them to compete, it teaches them that bullies call the shots.
The coach should tell the team what's going on, ask the kids if they want to reward the bullies or fight them with 1A free speech. If the latter, then announce to the auditorium you're leaving because of judicial bullying, lead the team onto the public sidewalk, protest the system then and there to demand that the system become un-rigged, and make sure the kids post it to social media.
Bullies hate sunlight. I believe enough of those embarrassing walkouts would change the system for the better, and the kids would learn a valuable lesson about using the Constitution to win the "game."
That is a fantastic idea!
Did you read the article? It’s not “some” petty judge…it’s the ethos of the whole organization. As soon as a debater expresses an unauthorized opinion they are met with ad hominem attacks and disqualified. Forget about presenting a well-reasoned argument. Just parrot the politically approved jargon.
That’s not debating. It’s a memorization contest, in this case, a Social Justice boot camp. Unless one has aspirations to work for mainstream media or run for Congress, I say find another hobby.
So your solution is "Just parrot the politically approved jargon"?
It’s not a solution, it’s the only option. Put up or shut up. Have a blast.
So you've worked hard and prepared yourself and ready to play your brand of football. Then the other team shows up in bathing suits and the refs are actually lifeguards. I don't see any chance for victory Tim, moral or otherwise.
Really? I'd say the chance of victory is assured, although if there are hot babes in bikinis on the other team, it might not be a "moral" victory.
Hot babes in bikinis = a WHOLE lot of post-whistle tackling :-)
This is a bad analogy. Think it through some more
Maybe you should think harder about what the meaning of “winning” is.
These debates are rigged by the judges. It doesn't matter who the better debater or fullback is in such a game.
Winning is impossible if the game is rigged against you.
That is not the same thing as being on a terrible team in a fairly refereed game.
I nominate you for honorary judge in this debate!
So if things are broken, don't try to get them fixed, just keep using the broken system? That attitude is exactly why things are broken. It eventually leads to the "They were just doing their job" mentality.
No self-respecting woman should ever have entered the same pool -- much less the same locker room -- as a man. And that's a far more clear-cut call for a mass exodus -- that did not happen.
I agree. Who died and made these bigoted assholes God? What a bunch of hateful, self righteous, dipshits. These narrow minded morons are telling these young people believe the way I do or lose. This mentality denies the definition of debate. They need a debate on the value of the First Amendment. That would bring the cockroaches out into the light. I have said all along the Democrat party is the party of evil, the party of tyranny. To be fair the Republicans are a bunch of bumbling jerks.
Hitler and Stalin would love the debate judges. They fall right in line with these brutal dictators.
Don’t like sounding like a broken record, but.
The three most dangerous political organizations in history:
Soviet Communists 1918-1950
German Socialists 1932-1945
American Democrats 1820-2023
Not necessarily in that order.
Yes! And the first debate can be: the only way to ensure the safety of our nukes is to hire as many trans kids as possible to manage them.
https://www.sub-verses.com/p/nukes-are-so-gay
Very funny!!😎👍
Made me laugh. As usual a great post.
I recommend ppl follow Gordon’s link to a very fun article.
Oh no, they misgendered me, FIRE!
The OP seems to be doing that just fine. I hope he continues to eat Big Debate for lunch.
We are. Here. The Twitter Files wouldn't have happened without subscription journalism. Nor the congressional hearing's. It scared them. Again. Mr. Fishback received no response to his inquiry and the DNC operatives did their best to castigate and silence Matt and Mike because we are all shouting into an echo chamber manned by pay me operative's. The more light truth speaker's can shine, the more solid we become, the weaker they are.
https://youtu.be/c91XUyg9iWM
What scares me is these young people are supposedly learning to use skills that will, in the future, help them in leadership positions. I don’t want my country’s future leaders learning how to suppress ideas.
Or is that the point?
Thats exactly the point. Unfortunately.
“Its famous alumni include Oprah Winfrey, and Supreme Court justices Neil Gorsuch and Ketanji Brown Jackson.”
One of these people was selected for a position of immense power over the everyday lives of all Americans based upon their race and sex, as explicitly stated by the president of the United States. Perhaps this person if highly competent and capable, but the stated reason for her selection was specifically her race and sex. And the first person on the list managed to attain immense success in life despite overwhelming obstacles, demonstrating that tokenism is not a requirement for success.
Yes, it is the point. Social Justice activism expresses itself by preventing other people from speaking. Once the principle that “speech is violence” takes over, anything we have to do to shut up “harmful” speech becomes justified. See how that works? Suddenly the bullies are taking the moral high ground, and whoever disagrees is a bigot, fascist, etc.
This approach to thought and speech is purposefully antithetical to the First Amendment. In fact, the First Amendment, and all the founding documents of the country, are in the shredder. When the judge refers to herself as a Maoist Marxist, this is not hyperbole. If we care about the future of democracy, we should take her at her word.
Sooner or later, we hit the point of no return...
Maybe for this generation. Funny thing about freedom though…the darn thing keeps resurfacing! Someone somewhere has an idea, and before you know it, it’s spreading.
Not if the tyrants take over it won't.
Tyranny always squelches Freedom. Until it doesn’t. I’m an ApocalypOptimist. We’re headed to the crapper, but eventually someone will climb out. I have to take the long view because the short view makes me drink too much.
You made me laugh, thanks.
😂😂😂Norma I went on the pots during the lockdowns but I since given up the drink.
Please God not, but it don’t look good at the moment.
The supporters of censoring arguments in favor of woke ideology can never defend their positions. They are cowards, and they should be treated with disdain.
This is a classic technique of authoritarians...”We will listen to anything you have to say...as long as it is within the parameters of which we agree to listen.”
This has the dual effect of both re-enforcing the tactics of the young, would-be authoritarians and inducing the young free thinkers into self-censorship.
When everything is about identity, all thinking stops, and a mind virus sets in, as I describe here...
https://www.sub-verses.com/p/climb-aboard-woke-my-spaceship
Good link. Horrifying Tweet cited as the focus. I believe people are becoming so skeptical that DEI will backfire.
I pray you are right, Sam!
Someone on this BBS rearranged the initials from DEI to a more apropos order DIE.
Very important to note that these biased judges do not believe in freedom of speech as an inmate human right.
Ironically, this current NSDA, not Mr Fishback's alternative, is teaching kids EXACTLY the skills they need to get ahead fast in today's world: 1. Start by digging up dirt on social media, 2. Never address your opponents argument directly (or at all), instead make sure the focus remains ad hominem, 3. Always argue from the left, 4. The more you say 'phobia' the more you win.
These are the rules compro uses when address this BBS.
Please tell me I’m not imagining things. I went to the link provided to Lila Lavender and cannot believe what I am reading. This is fake news, right? No one can really be a debate judge while also proclaiming to be a f*cking MAOIST? Do these people really exist or is this AI f*cking with us?
Sadly, this is real.
The number of judges with this stance is important. This is blatant discrimination and bias. Therefore knowing how many of the 47,000+ judges share this position matters. Any ideas on that?
I have a figure, too many. One is too many.
Given at least 24 warned about mentioning anything which could be perceived as "transphobic" (such as using Mr. or Miss.) and there are a couple hundred judges it could be between 15%-20%.
Well, it’s apparently the dominant viewpoint (If if were not, that level of stunning poison would not be tolerated anywhere in the organization.). It’s dominant enough that the National finals were judged by someone who clearly holds exactly these extreme views. I’d say that nowhere in the judge community is anyone pushing back on this. Therefore, effectively, ALL of them support this.
The guy/girl is a transloser. Mentally disturbed. Has no business exposing itself to high school kids.
I was thinking the same thing - who's dumbass ides was it to allow (or encouraged?) these judges to even create these pages...WHY? Their positions on anything are completely irrelevant to a competitive debate. That organization needs to implode in flames!
I was a fan of Che Guevara and Castro at the age of 15. Idealistic and reasonably intelligent. I expect kids to be like this but not fully functioning adults; escpecially those responsible to adjudicate on debates.
Get rid of the asterisk and replace it with a "u".
I get put in social media jail too much for that. Duh. Lol
Not on FP you won't.
Stay on topic, please. This is irrelevant.
You're no fun!
This is so sad. My son debated for his high school team for four years and in his senior year was co-captain. He learned many important skills as a result of this experience, including how to think logically, research an issue and put together a cogent argument. There are life skills that have helped him in his career. I am so glad that my children didn't experience what is occurring today as described in this article but I feel sorry for those high school students who live in fear for expressing views other than the personal views of the judge and also need to worry about being subjected to personal attacks. Debate has turned into a farce.
My son competed 4 years for a nationally recognized debate team of a top academic HS. He learned the most from debating and it has been the foundation of a successful professional career. This was only 10-15 years ago. There was no hint of this authoritarianism then - simply a rigorous competition that required hours of preparation each week.
It is amazing how the takeover of institutions occurred so rapidly. As they say, “it happens gradually and then suddenly.”
It is child abuse!
This effort to start a new, parallel debate society should be a model now for what to do about this totalitarianism. Reforming institutions from within will not work unless they are getting undermined at the same time by parallel institutions able to offer a real refuge and alternative. Maybe call it the Committees of Correspondence movement.
Won't work as long as radical Democrats control the federal budget and directly fund the most extremist leftists they can, which is how we got here in the first place.
Remember the trillions of dollars of COVID stimmy money? We don't even know how many hundreds of billions went to promoting and funding these extreme leftists.
Yip exactly we were set up. The Dems control the $$$.
Call it Capitalism.
...response to J. Barack.
Or TAGS.
The Anything Goes Society.
I am an active NSDA Coach and this year was the first year my students were able to attend the National Tournament because NSDA granted us our own District. Our district consists of Modern Orthodox Jewish students from Yeshiva High Schools around the country. Prior to this year, we were precluded from competing at Nationals as qualifying tournaments were on the Sabbath. NSDA granted us a district to correct this problem and we ended up sending 16 students from NY, NJ and FL to Nats. Our district can be found at www.citrononline.org.
I and our male students and even our judges proudly wore our kippas at the tournament. We also made it very clearly known that we are a pro-Israel Jews. Personally, I saw no negativity to me and my students.
I also witnessed and judged rounds, this year, debaters from around the world tackle difficult topics with zero perceived self-censorship.
With that all being said, I am CERTAIN there are judges who's paradigms are biased. I also personally think these judges should NOT be allowed to judge rounds. However, I would want to know their bias up front, in their paradigm, so I can take two actions:
1) Not hire them for our District and thanks to this series of articles we will be screening paradigms carefully
2) Be able to challenge a ballot based on bias of the judges through the proper channels at NSDA.
We plan to run over 20 tournaments in our district next year and I will personally take all measure to screen out biased judges. I think we will need other districts to commit to the same rules.
I wish you all the success - supporting legitimate debate is a powerful approach, whether it’s from inside the infected organization, as you are doing, or from the outside, as Incubate Debate is doing.
I think the more powerful your debaters become outside your own district, the harder you’ll feel the unfair bias, but I absolutely admire your commitment to support reasoned discourse.
They should rename the NSDA the National Subversion and Demoralization Association. Good reminder why it’s best to stay anon if you want to post spicy takes. My pseudonym warned us - can you reason with a demoralized person? https://yuribezmenov.substack.com/p/how-to-reason-with-a-demoralized
Premise: Today's über-progressive thought police are following a Nazi paradigm.
You nailed it but you could have also said NAZI and Communist Russia.
If you can’t win at something, no matter your efforts, then you change the rules in your favor or quit and disparage the event’s value entirely! This is a classic progressive left tactic. They have little to no interest in the actual debate and all its merits…unless it advance their ideologies and/or agendas. This isolationism of thought will be the downfall of our great society! So sad and so anti-American in its nature. It is exactly the type of “thought-control” our fore-fathers were fearful could destroy our chance at a safe and peaceful republic for all types of people to experience life, liberty and happiness!! It’s truly heartbreaking to watch our nation withering slowly in front of us!
Keep up the good work without Americans like you we have no chance.
These vicious ideologues are trying to bend our children to their warped way of thinking. It is called grooming.
"As the twig is bent so grows the tree." and of course, "The hand that rocks the cradle".
Thank you for reporting on this extensively and shining a light on this upside down situation. This is right out of “1984.” Debate is the place where we’ll thought out arguments inform and educate. Once again the woke agenda tries to pull the rug out from under logic. Keep fighting the good fight for our futures and our children. And remember to vote every single woke politician out of their jobs.
If you did as you suggest, you would destroy the Democrat/Socialist Party. So let's go for it.
NOW!!
Having taught “1984” a few times to high schoolers, I’m wondering if it’s now one of the “banned” books. It should be required reading nationally!
"A few critics have pointed out that my piece was written out of self-interest. That all I was trying to do is publicize my own organization." - Excuse my ignorance, but is the current system of high school debate (NSDA) free? Are there fees? Do the judges get paid or receive a stipend? How is the current system not benefitting the organization and organizers? How is the CURRENT system not one that has the interests of the existing organizers/admins/judges at heart?
They are super good at making people defend themselves when they shouldn't have to, but refuse to engage in their own BS. When you control the media, I guess you don't have to