People who are afraid to die are afraid to live, or haven't yet found any meaning in being alive. They could live forever and remain in a spiritual desert the entire time. Salvation is a spiritual event, not a chronologic one.
It is said quite often in Christian patristic writings that death is a gift that enables repentance and change. Immortality would crystalize our very worst aspects forever, and without change.
The only thing that makes life worth living is the fact that it's temporary. Many stories and movies (Tuck Everlasting, Highlander, Interview with a Vampire come to mind) have pointed this out. It's very deeply embedded in the Judeo-Christian view of the world, which even Western atheists largely share.
It’s about the purest form of narcissism. You can bet your life if any of these techs actually work, it’ll be reserved for the elites. No joe plumber is going to get revived. This article made me like Elon more and confirmed that Thiel is Thiel.
The funny thing about that is that if society does not have the joe plumbers, carpenters, laborers, how is the foundation of society going to survive? One could say those people are the drones that get stuff done while the elites just get to live their lives in their glass houses. Until the big revolt.
I'm not particularly religious, but surely if there is an afterlife, trapping yourself in AI would be like consigning yourself to purgatory for eternity? I can't think of anything worse.
Yes. Imagine the frustration of only knowing, but never feeling. I can't think of a worst scenario in which to be caught up. Sounds like a Philip K. Dick nightmare.
There is so much hubris among these transhumanists it is laughable. Their goals of living forever, defying death, uploading their brains, and curing all ills are reminiscent of so many science fiction stories that turn out - guess what - poorly! We are biologically created to DIE. Where is the consideration for the human psyche here, let alone the soul? The human mind is not meant to live forever, we cannot even conceive the concept of eternity and infinity, how would be able to deal with living beyond normal human years? Those who wish to fly on wings of wax and feathers will melt in the sun, and plummet into the ocean.
I see no good coming from this, just the concentration of human arrogance and narcissism. This is not an altruistic pursuit or project, it is a selfish and if that is the root of it, the motivator, what other dark human traits will be fed if such a venture is successful? It won't be the best side of us, it will be the worst. Transhumanism is an excellent example of the type of satanic thinking found in John Milton's Paradise Lost. There is a reason the greatest sin is human pride, whether you are a Christian or not there is much to be learned from that and it's a warning.
Edge, Amen! Before I read "satanic thinking", I was thinking to myself that these thoughts about living forever (in a biological way) are implanted by demons that live among us on Earth, trying to drive humanity away from G-d.
"Pritzker also created the first chair in transgender studies at the University of Victoria in British Columbia. The current chair, Aaron Devor, founded an annual conference called Moving Trans History Forward, whose keynote speaker in 2016 was the renowned transhumanist, Martine Rothblatt, who was mentored by the transhumanist Ray Kurzweil of Google. Rothblatt lectured there on the value of creating an organization such as WPATH to serve “tech transgenders” in the cultivation of “tech transhumanists.” (Rothblatt’s ideology of disembodiment and technological religion seems to be having nearly as much influence on American culture as Sirius satellite radio, which Rothblatt co-founded.) Rothblatt is an integral presence at Out Leadership, a business networking arm of the LGBTQ+ movement, and appears to believe that “we are making God as we are implementing technology that is ever more all-knowing, ever-present, all-powerful, and beneficent.”"
So, tons of billionaire money goes into pushing this.
Thank you for sharing these articles LovingMother, you always have good resources and thoughts to share. I know of Rothblatt, she's also dreaming of creating organ farms from genetically modified pigs to grow organs not just for people in organ failure, but for replacing aging organs (I wrote about that on my substack in an essay called When Science goes too Far). The religious movement mentioned in connection with her is based on the work of science fiction writer, Octavia Butler, specifically her book series "Earthseed."
These types of movements are definitely pushed by big money and strange, unhuman philosophies in my opinion. It's rooted in the desire to transcend our human limitations, which in and of itself is prideful. It's strange, bizzare, and worrisome.
Talk about the ultimate conceit - that these brilliant minds and wealthy individuals are so important to society that they need to live forever and, I imagine, that many of these tech geniuses are also the very same people that worry about overcrowding and climate action yet they want to continue on in this “overheated” world!
Another excellent story from TFP! You're on a roll!
Downloading one's consciousness into a receptacle of some kind —a robot, another human being, a sophisticated server—has been a staple of science fiction plotting since the Golden Age of Asimov and Heinlein.
What I could never get beyond is this: The _receptacle_ might feel some sort of continuity with the consciousness that once was yours, but _you_ will not feel any continuity with that receptacle. Your consciousness will _still_ cease to exist the moment you die. Your sense of "you" is much more than the contents of your brain! So from the perspective of immortality, this has never seemed like a workable solution. 😀
Also, in my experience, there are developmental stages in adulthood just as there are developmental stages in childhood, and these stages all seem to be about preparing one for what comes next.
My last birthday was a Significant Number. And I can actually _feel_ myself beginning to separate out from the world around me, not in a dementia way, and not in any kind of negative way. (It's so difficult to describe!). But it seems to me that I _am_ beginning to prepare for death. It's kind of exciting, in a way!
Your comment started me thinking that the greatest thing those of us who are along in years could do for society is to impart our experience and perhaps, "wisdom" to the young, rather than trying to ape them and look ridiculous in the process.
Do you think the young are receptive to wisdom? I think some might be be but they are exceptional. I wish I had been more willing to listen, understand and believe elders around me in my youth instead of rolling my eyes at them. I believe it might have spared me from some self created difficulties throughout my life.
Sure, as long as it's not delivered in a condescending fashion "well, when *I* was your age blah blah blah." I mentor young people at work all the time and my goal isn't to make them agree with me, or do exactly what I want--it's to give them some alternative ways of thinking about things. It's also really invaluable for me in that it reminds me that most young people are decent and that Twitter/Instagram etc. provide a very distorted picture of how things actually are.
I’m guilty. Those words came out of my mouth a number of times. I swore I’d never forget what it was like to be young. But I have. My daughter has a good head on her shoulders in some ways. She doesn’t have to work this summer but she insisted she wants her own money. She got a job at an ice cream parlor. She’s taking 2 summer courses to ensure she graduates on time. I’m proud of her, but I am hard on her too and get frustrated when she doesn’t listen to me or take advice.
I think they are. And even if they aren't as receptive at the time the wisdom is imparted, they will remember things that will become relevant later in their lives. At least this has been my own personal experience. It's like the joke: "My parents get smarter and smarter the older I get." That certainly applied to my life. So many things my folks told me in my teens and twenties that I didn't necessarily want to hear or believe still stuck with me and turned out to be oh so true.
My favorite Mark Twain quote: "“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”
I think a concern I have is it seems like I have more competition than my parents did. A lot of info online. So I suppose it boils down to trust. Also there is no way she can truly understand me until she herself becomes a parent. That opened my eyes and changed me more than anything else.
I am 69 and have a few millennial friends. One of them told me something very profound: If they don’t already know you and trust you, trying to pour into their lives is like pouring coffee on a cup lid.
When I was about 30, I read something by someone I respected (Might’ve been Wm F Buckley) who said “As you get older you are less attached to this life”. I was shocked and did not understand. I’m 64 now, and get it. To your point.
It’s preparation. When my 72 year old mom was diagnosed with lung cancer she said she just wanted whatever good time she had left. My 39 year old self projected my attachment to life onto her and convinced her to do surgery. She never came home. I feel I robbed her of 18-24 months of life.
It's hard to let go of those we love. My mother was doing well and had a stroke and hip fracture in January. She now spends half her time in our home and half with one of my sisters. I watched her going down the hallway one day and I could almost see her fading. If it wasn't for a previous loss in our family I would probably be trying to get her to attach herself to life, but I lost a 23-yr-old daughter in 2009 (lightning strike) and I have to believe we will be together again someday. Losing the young before their time affects one's perspective on aging. You didn't rob your mother, you were trying to hold onto your time with her. That is a human thing to do.
I’m so sorry for the loss of your dear daughter… and I send you hugs as you take good care of your mom. It’s not easy to see loved ones decline like this, but I know she feels the love of you and your sister and family. It’s a treasure and you are a gift to her.
I am sorry for your loss. This kind of situation seems to occur very frequently and is addressed in Atul Gawande's book Being Mortal. Very much recommended and sees to address many of the issues and concerns brought up today.
Love that book! In fact, just a couple hours ago I gave a copy to a friend of one of my kids who just graduated from medical school. I hardly know him, but we recently ended up in a conversation about end-of-life care and I recommended this book. He was grateful to hear about it as he had found the rotation in geriatrics gave him a lot to think about.
Tom… your mom was still relatively young, and so many of us would have done the same thing as you did. Your love was what motivated her… and we don’t know how hard her decline would have been. We went through something similar years ago, and the ravages of cancer as it takes your life are pretty tough. Your mom may have had a real hard 18 months. You were a good and loving son, and I’m sure she knew that. May you take some consolation in that.🥰
Tom I propose you let that thought quickly drift away. It seems that you are saying she had cancer that was very far advanced...if this is the case those last months of life could have been an existence of constant pain, medicine, doctors, hospitals. I’ve seen it. Better to remember a life well lived and cherished.
Thank you for that! For the past few years I have felt the same, separating from the world around me, feeling the irrelevance of being "old" while the world spins on with the concerns of living, breathing, reproducing, and moving from one stage to another.
As a newly retired man of 72 I am coming to terms with the final curtain, death. I have long been aware of how I am perceived by the younger as they have asked me "How old ARE you?" when I was still working. The subtext to that question was "How are you still alive and working?" To them it is inconceivable that they, themselves, will ever reach my stage of life. Their lives have no discernable horizon while I am circling around the event horizon, waiting for that last descent into oblivion.
Despite this, there have been benefits to growing older, ones that include sharing knowledge and experience with those further back on the path, and sometimes I am gratified that my contributions were appreciated. But if I were granted the gift/curse of eternal physical life I fear that my willingness to share would be curtailed, and that I would take on a world weariness that would be hard to counter.
My faith teaches me that I will be restored to life by my creator, with a newly transformed body that will be made for worship and service, service that my original, slowly failing body and psyche could not support. I long for that transformation with eyes that really see, and knowledge that is not ephemeral. Maybe you think or believe that religion is a coping mechanism for death, but it is still a comfort to those among us who have experienced most of what living has to offer. I am not in the camp of those younger than me who are searching for the quest of immortality. It is nothing more that whistling past the graveyard.
I feel this way too! Less attached to the world. But attachment to my family and dog seems to have increased so much I get really sad imagining one day we will no longer be together. I don’t want to live forever, but want to be with my husband, daughter and dog forever. With “me time” breaks still included. I like to miss them and experience feeling happy when I’m around them again.
At age 62, I feel the exact same way that you just described, as if I'm now whole-heartedly facing my upcoming death and preparing myself, emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually for it (it does, indeed, feel like the "energy" within me is loosening itself from physical reality in preparation for what I like to think of as "the jump" from this reality to the next). I agree with Elon. I can't think of a greater punishment than having to live forever on Planet Earth (though I love the beauty of Earth immensely and give thanks to our lovely woods and all the other life forms with whom I share this beautiful space). When it's my time to go, though, I look forward to whatever adventure awaits; and if there's nothing after death, as so many folks say these days, I won't be aware of my instantaneous blip into nothingness (which is exactly what happens when I fall asleep every night--no big deal, nothing to worry about).
Exactly this! As I said in another comment, I see some value here if, for example, it allows history students in the future to ask questions about what life was like for people in the 20th/21st century and get a reasonable response. Or for people that want to preserve some kind of family legacy or memories. But as a way to live forever--nope!
So if Biden is a crook and an idiot. If we freeze him for a 100 years, does he still wake up looking for Corn Pop, his big rig truck, and is still the working man from Scranton? Or does his demented brain work for a 100 years trying to figure out how to screw things up even more?
Think I will take my faith, live, love, laugh and enjoy this life and not even consider being frozen, That's why old people go to Florida, they hate the cold.
Biden is a good case study. Who would want to revive this mostly deteriorated, deeply flawed human being in 10, 50, or 100 years? Is that the kind of breakthrough that we want? I don't think so.
I don't want to live forever; however, I do want to live as well as I can for as long as I am here. If proper exercise, nutrition and a balanced approach to stress can keep me moving and engaged I'm happy to live 80 or maybe even 90 years and then move on to whatever is next (insert your faith here).
Steven Hawkins said life after death is wishful thinking.
Many religions believe if you are faithful to religion XYZ you will live forever. Forever is a long, long, long time. Time without end. It sounds like torture to me. What would you do forever?
AS an aside, I think I know who comprof is and where she teaches. Below is a video of her:
The same thing that makes all brilliant idiots. They find it absurd to conceive of a universe where there is competition. They have decided that their opinion is sovereign. Brilliant idiots.
Humans have this hubris that they think they can cheat death. It's part of why our species is different. Other animals just try to stay alive. We think we can actually beat death and rationalise it while life eventually proves us wrong.
My grandmother had the best line. We'd drive by a graveyard and she'd say something to the effect, "In there, there are a lot of stupid accidents!"
This. When I practice medicine in the first world it is amazing how people have never considered they or their parents might die some day. It’s like an affront, an insult to even being up that the human body has its limits. So amazing to me.
seansg - It really doesn't matter what other people do. Take it from me, who struggled for years to maintain an exercise routine, that what works, is what you like and/or will do consistently. Try everything and see what sticks for you. My current passion is spinning, but I used to be a runner.
One brief quibble before I get to the rest of the article -- Jasper’s parents are dogs. His owners are the ones paying for him to be cryogenically frozen.
It is the nature of life to die, intrinsically intertwined is the dance of life and death. It is the web of life. I know a lot of people fear it, but it is as natural as being born.
And that’s where the problem lies - they don’t even observe birth as a natural occurrence, but a medical event to be micromanaged and controlled. Case in point, that pro-natalist couple with 29 embryos on ice that they pick and choose to gestate at their convenience and to their specifications.
Didn't Juan Ponce de León try to find the mythical Fountain of Youth in the 1500s? Isn't this the same search (freezing huh?) but using science to try and stave off the inevitable? What these folks don't consider in their analysis, is that aging is in our cells at the deepest and most fundamental level. Leaving the aging bit aside, if I was frozen for 200 years, someone knocked the frost off me, figured out how to turn my -130 f degree frozen blood, heart, liver, gut and brain into something working again, would I want to live in that world?
Like Queen’s song “39”. Astronauts take off. Gone 100 Earth years but only a couple for them since they traveled near Speed of Light. Came home, wives, siblings, grandchildren all long dead. Very sad. “All your letters in the sand cannot heal me like your hand, for my life’s still ahead, pity me.”
That's the question addressed in whimsical fashion in Woody Allen's amusing 1973 film "Sleeper", in which Allen is the owner of a health food store in New York City who is frozen in 1973 after an operation goes wrong and defrosted 200 years later by rebels who hope that with no official identity he will be useful to their plans to overthrow the police state that the U.S. has become. Of course the film is filled with the usual Woody Allen quips. At one point, Luna (Diane Keaton) asks him "What's it like to be dead for 200 years?", and Allen replies "It's like spending a weekend in Beverly Hills."
As to whether it might be possible in the not too distant future to actually slow down, stop, or even reverse the aging process, I think that many of the same people who believe as you do "that aging is in our cells at the deepest and most fundamental level" are also the same people that are terrified of the possibility that they might be wrong, and that those who do take advantage of this technology to live, if not forever, then significantly longer than the current human lifespan, will find pleasant and constructive ways to spend their additional time on earth.
All of this “I’m going to live forever” talk reminds me of the demonic living head in C.S. Lewis’ “That Hideous Strength.” Like the members of N.I.C.E. In that story, these people sound absolutely miserable. I’m willing to bet that they’re also the types telling us that we all need to cut back while they freeze their dead bodies with energy intensive cryogenics.
This is what secular modernity brings: man attempting centering himself as God. It never ends well, either.
Maybe I'm being hyper-sensitive, but I can't helping thinking that Suzy chose to lead with Mills in this story so she could mock Mormons. She spotlights his patently false assertion: "Most Mormons are really just transhumanists." (We're not.) And she buries the information that Mills is not LDS anymore nearly two dozen paragraphs into the essay. And she highlights Mills' own mocking of the LDS faith in his supposed "plan" for a deathless future: "Living forever = eternal progression, we should become gods and create for eternity."
Suzy, if someone wrote an essay emphasizing a weird guy's Jewish identity in this same way, I'd call that antisemitic. What should I call this?
I feel bad for those that cling so tightly to this world. To have no faith in what lies in the sweet by and by...if you don’t have that, you don’t really live in this life
Yes! Also, since these people don't consider spiritual aspects, they neglect to consider how to reinsert our soul into that thawed out carcass. They probably don't think we have one. Oh well. Silly scientists.
Suzy this was a really interesting article to read. I appreciated the angles and I like your humor.
My takeaways. 1) I wonder.....Mills only read a book at 21, dropped out of high school at 16, and unless I misread-his parents are footing most of this endeavor? He probably lives with them. I feel a little sad for this kid - he’s probably never kissed another person or had to problem solve getting to work by a bus schedule. I wonder if he’s really living life right now.
2) hubris. Spending kabillions on this so they can possibly be reanimated in 300 years, while kabillions of people, actual humans, all over the world, right this minute, need nutrition or medicine or a tin roof or shoes. I’m not particularly religious but I do wish people would see that the Kingdom of Heaven is here and now. Right at this moment.
3) in the words of my 83 year old father, “no one is getting out of here alive”.
People who are afraid to die are afraid to live, or haven't yet found any meaning in being alive. They could live forever and remain in a spiritual desert the entire time. Salvation is a spiritual event, not a chronologic one.
It is said quite often in Christian patristic writings that death is a gift that enables repentance and change. Immortality would crystalize our very worst aspects forever, and without change.
The only thing that makes life worth living is the fact that it's temporary. Many stories and movies (Tuck Everlasting, Highlander, Interview with a Vampire come to mind) have pointed this out. It's very deeply embedded in the Judeo-Christian view of the world, which even Western atheists largely share.
Amen.
It’s about the purest form of narcissism. You can bet your life if any of these techs actually work, it’ll be reserved for the elites. No joe plumber is going to get revived. This article made me like Elon more and confirmed that Thiel is Thiel.
Without Joe the Plumber their devices will break down and their toilets will choke with their “ideas”.
Haha!
The funny thing about that is that if society does not have the joe plumbers, carpenters, laborers, how is the foundation of society going to survive? One could say those people are the drones that get stuff done while the elites just get to live their lives in their glass houses. Until the big revolt.
NO THANK YOU.
I'm not particularly religious, but surely if there is an afterlife, trapping yourself in AI would be like consigning yourself to purgatory for eternity? I can't think of anything worse.
Yes. Imagine the frustration of only knowing, but never feeling. I can't think of a worst scenario in which to be caught up. Sounds like a Philip K. Dick nightmare.
Steve Jobs spoke of death as sweeping out the old and making room for the new. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc He lives on through the miracle of you tube.
Me neither!
There is so much hubris among these transhumanists it is laughable. Their goals of living forever, defying death, uploading their brains, and curing all ills are reminiscent of so many science fiction stories that turn out - guess what - poorly! We are biologically created to DIE. Where is the consideration for the human psyche here, let alone the soul? The human mind is not meant to live forever, we cannot even conceive the concept of eternity and infinity, how would be able to deal with living beyond normal human years? Those who wish to fly on wings of wax and feathers will melt in the sun, and plummet into the ocean.
I see no good coming from this, just the concentration of human arrogance and narcissism. This is not an altruistic pursuit or project, it is a selfish and if that is the root of it, the motivator, what other dark human traits will be fed if such a venture is successful? It won't be the best side of us, it will be the worst. Transhumanism is an excellent example of the type of satanic thinking found in John Milton's Paradise Lost. There is a reason the greatest sin is human pride, whether you are a Christian or not there is much to be learned from that and it's a warning.
Edge, Amen! Before I read "satanic thinking", I was thinking to myself that these thoughts about living forever (in a biological way) are implanted by demons that live among us on Earth, trying to drive humanity away from G-d.
There's lots of Transhumanist and TransGender overlap:
"What is the Trans Agenda? - Questions For Corbett (video)"
https://www.corbettreport.com/what-is-the-trans-agenda-questions-for-corbett-video/
There are definitely some billionaires who back trans-humanism/synthetic sex identities:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/billionaire-family-pushing-synthetic-sex-identities-ssi-pritzkers
"Pritzker also created the first chair in transgender studies at the University of Victoria in British Columbia. The current chair, Aaron Devor, founded an annual conference called Moving Trans History Forward, whose keynote speaker in 2016 was the renowned transhumanist, Martine Rothblatt, who was mentored by the transhumanist Ray Kurzweil of Google. Rothblatt lectured there on the value of creating an organization such as WPATH to serve “tech transgenders” in the cultivation of “tech transhumanists.” (Rothblatt’s ideology of disembodiment and technological religion seems to be having nearly as much influence on American culture as Sirius satellite radio, which Rothblatt co-founded.) Rothblatt is an integral presence at Out Leadership, a business networking arm of the LGBTQ+ movement, and appears to believe that “we are making God as we are implementing technology that is ever more all-knowing, ever-present, all-powerful, and beneficent.”"
So, tons of billionaire money goes into pushing this.
Thank you for sharing these articles LovingMother, you always have good resources and thoughts to share. I know of Rothblatt, she's also dreaming of creating organ farms from genetically modified pigs to grow organs not just for people in organ failure, but for replacing aging organs (I wrote about that on my substack in an essay called When Science goes too Far). The religious movement mentioned in connection with her is based on the work of science fiction writer, Octavia Butler, specifically her book series "Earthseed."
These types of movements are definitely pushed by big money and strange, unhuman philosophies in my opinion. It's rooted in the desire to transcend our human limitations, which in and of itself is prideful. It's strange, bizzare, and worrisome.
Talk about the ultimate conceit - that these brilliant minds and wealthy individuals are so important to society that they need to live forever and, I imagine, that many of these tech geniuses are also the very same people that worry about overcrowding and climate action yet they want to continue on in this “overheated” world!
Especially when that gaseous old fiend, Soros, appears to be living forever. Clearly he's made a malign bargain.
Soros is evil but yet still alive. We don't need people like him reawakened.
I think “Soros” is actually spelled “Sauron”.
He certainly is dark, VERY DARK
And Kissinger is going to be 100 this month. It gives new meaning to “Only the good die young”.
Another excellent story from TFP! You're on a roll!
Downloading one's consciousness into a receptacle of some kind —a robot, another human being, a sophisticated server—has been a staple of science fiction plotting since the Golden Age of Asimov and Heinlein.
What I could never get beyond is this: The _receptacle_ might feel some sort of continuity with the consciousness that once was yours, but _you_ will not feel any continuity with that receptacle. Your consciousness will _still_ cease to exist the moment you die. Your sense of "you" is much more than the contents of your brain! So from the perspective of immortality, this has never seemed like a workable solution. 😀
Also, in my experience, there are developmental stages in adulthood just as there are developmental stages in childhood, and these stages all seem to be about preparing one for what comes next.
My last birthday was a Significant Number. And I can actually _feel_ myself beginning to separate out from the world around me, not in a dementia way, and not in any kind of negative way. (It's so difficult to describe!). But it seems to me that I _am_ beginning to prepare for death. It's kind of exciting, in a way!
Your comment started me thinking that the greatest thing those of us who are along in years could do for society is to impart our experience and perhaps, "wisdom" to the young, rather than trying to ape them and look ridiculous in the process.
Looking at you, Madonna 👀
Seriously, we need a Hahaha button in addition to the double like button.
Do you think the young are receptive to wisdom? I think some might be be but they are exceptional. I wish I had been more willing to listen, understand and believe elders around me in my youth instead of rolling my eyes at them. I believe it might have spared me from some self created difficulties throughout my life.
Sure, as long as it's not delivered in a condescending fashion "well, when *I* was your age blah blah blah." I mentor young people at work all the time and my goal isn't to make them agree with me, or do exactly what I want--it's to give them some alternative ways of thinking about things. It's also really invaluable for me in that it reminds me that most young people are decent and that Twitter/Instagram etc. provide a very distorted picture of how things actually are.
I’m guilty. Those words came out of my mouth a number of times. I swore I’d never forget what it was like to be young. But I have. My daughter has a good head on her shoulders in some ways. She doesn’t have to work this summer but she insisted she wants her own money. She got a job at an ice cream parlor. She’s taking 2 summer courses to ensure she graduates on time. I’m proud of her, but I am hard on her too and get frustrated when she doesn’t listen to me or take advice.
I think they are. And even if they aren't as receptive at the time the wisdom is imparted, they will remember things that will become relevant later in their lives. At least this has been my own personal experience. It's like the joke: "My parents get smarter and smarter the older I get." That certainly applied to my life. So many things my folks told me in my teens and twenties that I didn't necessarily want to hear or believe still stuck with me and turned out to be oh so true.
My favorite Mark Twain quote: "“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”
I think a concern I have is it seems like I have more competition than my parents did. A lot of info online. So I suppose it boils down to trust. Also there is no way she can truly understand me until she herself becomes a parent. That opened my eyes and changed me more than anything else.
Yes, if we don't force it on them. And, in due course and reflection, it might be found useful.
I keep telling myself to be more patient with our 20 year old. I’m planting seeds, and hopefully they take root 🙏🏼 even if I’m not around to see it.
I am 69 and have a few millennial friends. One of them told me something very profound: If they don’t already know you and trust you, trying to pour into their lives is like pouring coffee on a cup lid.
Yes, yes, YES!!!!! ❤️
Excellent wisdom in your comment. Please pass that wisdom to as many as possible.
When I was about 30, I read something by someone I respected (Might’ve been Wm F Buckley) who said “As you get older you are less attached to this life”. I was shocked and did not understand. I’m 64 now, and get it. To your point.
I know, right?
And this is something I suppose those techies chasing immortality can't understand at all: It's not a negative feeling. It feels very pleasant.
It’s preparation. When my 72 year old mom was diagnosed with lung cancer she said she just wanted whatever good time she had left. My 39 year old self projected my attachment to life onto her and convinced her to do surgery. She never came home. I feel I robbed her of 18-24 months of life.
It's hard to let go of those we love. My mother was doing well and had a stroke and hip fracture in January. She now spends half her time in our home and half with one of my sisters. I watched her going down the hallway one day and I could almost see her fading. If it wasn't for a previous loss in our family I would probably be trying to get her to attach herself to life, but I lost a 23-yr-old daughter in 2009 (lightning strike) and I have to believe we will be together again someday. Losing the young before their time affects one's perspective on aging. You didn't rob your mother, you were trying to hold onto your time with her. That is a human thing to do.
Thank you for that. I hadn't considered that. And my deepest condolences on losing your daughter. Every parent's nightmare......
I’m so sorry for the loss of your dear daughter… and I send you hugs as you take good care of your mom. It’s not easy to see loved ones decline like this, but I know she feels the love of you and your sister and family. It’s a treasure and you are a gift to her.
Kmick-- So sorry...
I am sorry for your loss. This kind of situation seems to occur very frequently and is addressed in Atul Gawande's book Being Mortal. Very much recommended and sees to address many of the issues and concerns brought up today.
Love that book! In fact, just a couple hours ago I gave a copy to a friend of one of my kids who just graduated from medical school. I hardly know him, but we recently ended up in a conversation about end-of-life care and I recommended this book. He was grateful to hear about it as he had found the rotation in geriatrics gave him a lot to think about.
Tom… your mom was still relatively young, and so many of us would have done the same thing as you did. Your love was what motivated her… and we don’t know how hard her decline would have been. We went through something similar years ago, and the ravages of cancer as it takes your life are pretty tough. Your mom may have had a real hard 18 months. You were a good and loving son, and I’m sure she knew that. May you take some consolation in that.🥰
I am sorry for your loss.
Tom I propose you let that thought quickly drift away. It seems that you are saying she had cancer that was very far advanced...if this is the case those last months of life could have been an existence of constant pain, medicine, doctors, hospitals. I’ve seen it. Better to remember a life well lived and cherished.
Tom, I understand that feeling.
Yes. You see the vanity, the futility of grasping and ambition.
Thank you for that! For the past few years I have felt the same, separating from the world around me, feeling the irrelevance of being "old" while the world spins on with the concerns of living, breathing, reproducing, and moving from one stage to another.
As a newly retired man of 72 I am coming to terms with the final curtain, death. I have long been aware of how I am perceived by the younger as they have asked me "How old ARE you?" when I was still working. The subtext to that question was "How are you still alive and working?" To them it is inconceivable that they, themselves, will ever reach my stage of life. Their lives have no discernable horizon while I am circling around the event horizon, waiting for that last descent into oblivion.
Despite this, there have been benefits to growing older, ones that include sharing knowledge and experience with those further back on the path, and sometimes I am gratified that my contributions were appreciated. But if I were granted the gift/curse of eternal physical life I fear that my willingness to share would be curtailed, and that I would take on a world weariness that would be hard to counter.
My faith teaches me that I will be restored to life by my creator, with a newly transformed body that will be made for worship and service, service that my original, slowly failing body and psyche could not support. I long for that transformation with eyes that really see, and knowledge that is not ephemeral. Maybe you think or believe that religion is a coping mechanism for death, but it is still a comfort to those among us who have experienced most of what living has to offer. I am not in the camp of those younger than me who are searching for the quest of immortality. It is nothing more that whistling past the graveyard.
I feel this way too! Less attached to the world. But attachment to my family and dog seems to have increased so much I get really sad imagining one day we will no longer be together. I don’t want to live forever, but want to be with my husband, daughter and dog forever. With “me time” breaks still included. I like to miss them and experience feeling happy when I’m around them again.
At age 62, I feel the exact same way that you just described, as if I'm now whole-heartedly facing my upcoming death and preparing myself, emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually for it (it does, indeed, feel like the "energy" within me is loosening itself from physical reality in preparation for what I like to think of as "the jump" from this reality to the next). I agree with Elon. I can't think of a greater punishment than having to live forever on Planet Earth (though I love the beauty of Earth immensely and give thanks to our lovely woods and all the other life forms with whom I share this beautiful space). When it's my time to go, though, I look forward to whatever adventure awaits; and if there's nothing after death, as so many folks say these days, I won't be aware of my instantaneous blip into nothingness (which is exactly what happens when I fall asleep every night--no big deal, nothing to worry about).
Exactly this! As I said in another comment, I see some value here if, for example, it allows history students in the future to ask questions about what life was like for people in the 20th/21st century and get a reasonable response. Or for people that want to preserve some kind of family legacy or memories. But as a way to live forever--nope!
So if Biden is a crook and an idiot. If we freeze him for a 100 years, does he still wake up looking for Corn Pop, his big rig truck, and is still the working man from Scranton? Or does his demented brain work for a 100 years trying to figure out how to screw things up even more?
Think I will take my faith, live, love, laugh and enjoy this life and not even consider being frozen, That's why old people go to Florida, they hate the cold.
Biden is a good case study. Who would want to revive this mostly deteriorated, deeply flawed human being in 10, 50, or 100 years? Is that the kind of breakthrough that we want? I don't think so.
Yes! And have the main systematic determinant of who gets a second act to be who has raked the plebes the most.
LOL
“does he still wake up looking for Corn Pop, his big rig truck, and is still the working man from Scranton? “
LOL
I don't want to live forever; however, I do want to live as well as I can for as long as I am here. If proper exercise, nutrition and a balanced approach to stress can keep me moving and engaged I'm happy to live 80 or maybe even 90 years and then move on to whatever is next (insert your faith here).
My neighbor is 96. She said when she can't wipe her ass anymore it's time.
Hah! Exactly! A good part of my morning routine is rotational flexibility just for that purpose. My kids think I'm crazy...
Lol.
Thank you for the laugh of the day!!!!
Loved your comment.
Yup. Time to eat the gun.
Steven Hawkins said life after death is wishful thinking.
Many religions believe if you are faithful to religion XYZ you will live forever. Forever is a long, long, long time. Time without end. It sounds like torture to me. What would you do forever?
AS an aside, I think I know who comprof is and where she teaches. Below is a video of her:
https://nypost.com/2023/05/23/nyc-college-professor-shellyne-rodriguez-holds-machete-to-post-reporters-neck/
What do you think? Have I nailed it? I think so.
Hawkings was a brilliant idiot.
What makes him an idiot?
The same thing that makes all brilliant idiots. They find it absurd to conceive of a universe where there is competition. They have decided that their opinion is sovereign. Brilliant idiots.
Yep.
Comprof uses fewer expletives. 😄
Lol
Humans have this hubris that they think they can cheat death. It's part of why our species is different. Other animals just try to stay alive. We think we can actually beat death and rationalise it while life eventually proves us wrong.
My grandmother had the best line. We'd drive by a graveyard and she'd say something to the effect, "In there, there are a lot of stupid accidents!"
This. When I practice medicine in the first world it is amazing how people have never considered they or their parents might die some day. It’s like an affront, an insult to even being up that the human body has its limits. So amazing to me.
What's your exercise routine like, if you don't mind my asking? I really need one; I am quite sedentary
seansg - It really doesn't matter what other people do. Take it from me, who struggled for years to maintain an exercise routine, that what works, is what you like and/or will do consistently. Try everything and see what sticks for you. My current passion is spinning, but I used to be a runner.
Walk.
One brief quibble before I get to the rest of the article -- Jasper’s parents are dogs. His owners are the ones paying for him to be cryogenically frozen.
Dogs are people too, bigot :P
Ha & yes!
Amy for the win!
I totally noticed that
It is the nature of life to die, intrinsically intertwined is the dance of life and death. It is the web of life. I know a lot of people fear it, but it is as natural as being born.
And that’s where the problem lies - they don’t even observe birth as a natural occurrence, but a medical event to be micromanaged and controlled. Case in point, that pro-natalist couple with 29 embryos on ice that they pick and choose to gestate at their convenience and to their specifications.
Didn't Juan Ponce de León try to find the mythical Fountain of Youth in the 1500s? Isn't this the same search (freezing huh?) but using science to try and stave off the inevitable? What these folks don't consider in their analysis, is that aging is in our cells at the deepest and most fundamental level. Leaving the aging bit aside, if I was frozen for 200 years, someone knocked the frost off me, figured out how to turn my -130 f degree frozen blood, heart, liver, gut and brain into something working again, would I want to live in that world?
Like Queen’s song “39”. Astronauts take off. Gone 100 Earth years but only a couple for them since they traveled near Speed of Light. Came home, wives, siblings, grandchildren all long dead. Very sad. “All your letters in the sand cannot heal me like your hand, for my life’s still ahead, pity me.”
That's the question addressed in whimsical fashion in Woody Allen's amusing 1973 film "Sleeper", in which Allen is the owner of a health food store in New York City who is frozen in 1973 after an operation goes wrong and defrosted 200 years later by rebels who hope that with no official identity he will be useful to their plans to overthrow the police state that the U.S. has become. Of course the film is filled with the usual Woody Allen quips. At one point, Luna (Diane Keaton) asks him "What's it like to be dead for 200 years?", and Allen replies "It's like spending a weekend in Beverly Hills."
As to whether it might be possible in the not too distant future to actually slow down, stop, or even reverse the aging process, I think that many of the same people who believe as you do "that aging is in our cells at the deepest and most fundamental level" are also the same people that are terrified of the possibility that they might be wrong, and that those who do take advantage of this technology to live, if not forever, then significantly longer than the current human lifespan, will find pleasant and constructive ways to spend their additional time on earth.
All of this “I’m going to live forever” talk reminds me of the demonic living head in C.S. Lewis’ “That Hideous Strength.” Like the members of N.I.C.E. In that story, these people sound absolutely miserable. I’m willing to bet that they’re also the types telling us that we all need to cut back while they freeze their dead bodies with energy intensive cryogenics.
This is what secular modernity brings: man attempting centering himself as God. It never ends well, either.
Maybe I'm being hyper-sensitive, but I can't helping thinking that Suzy chose to lead with Mills in this story so she could mock Mormons. She spotlights his patently false assertion: "Most Mormons are really just transhumanists." (We're not.) And she buries the information that Mills is not LDS anymore nearly two dozen paragraphs into the essay. And she highlights Mills' own mocking of the LDS faith in his supposed "plan" for a deathless future: "Living forever = eternal progression, we should become gods and create for eternity."
Suzy, if someone wrote an essay emphasizing a weird guy's Jewish identity in this same way, I'd call that antisemitic. What should I call this?
Stupid
Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.
I feel bad for those that cling so tightly to this world. To have no faith in what lies in the sweet by and by...if you don’t have that, you don’t really live in this life
Yes! Also, since these people don't consider spiritual aspects, they neglect to consider how to reinsert our soul into that thawed out carcass. They probably don't think we have one. Oh well. Silly scientists.
Suzy this was a really interesting article to read. I appreciated the angles and I like your humor.
My takeaways. 1) I wonder.....Mills only read a book at 21, dropped out of high school at 16, and unless I misread-his parents are footing most of this endeavor? He probably lives with them. I feel a little sad for this kid - he’s probably never kissed another person or had to problem solve getting to work by a bus schedule. I wonder if he’s really living life right now.
2) hubris. Spending kabillions on this so they can possibly be reanimated in 300 years, while kabillions of people, actual humans, all over the world, right this minute, need nutrition or medicine or a tin roof or shoes. I’m not particularly religious but I do wish people would see that the Kingdom of Heaven is here and now. Right at this moment.
3) in the words of my 83 year old father, “no one is getting out of here alive”.
3)
That extra 3 is there because my copy editor is out with the cows