Regarding DeSantis’ pivot, there’s a big difference between 2015 and today that doesn’t have to do with who the Commander in Chief is. Under President Obama we let Russia cross a red line and annex Crimea. We continued down the path of possible NATO entry for Ukraine, escalating Russia’s fear of a perceived threat. Under President Biden we exited Afghanistan in a spectacularly incompetent fashion, giving an opening for Putin to expand what he had already poached. I’m not saying politics may not pay a role, but to ignore the actions that led us to where we are now just to set up a tidy juxtaposition doesn’t do the author or his conclusions credit.
It is intentional policy. The consequence is chaos, a destabilized nation and a citizenry under continued stress and assault. The LIE has become so shaky and transparent the DNC/Biden/CCP/Davos juggernaut is now working to criminalize all concerned American citizen's. Mass arrest's for thought and speech crime's and political re-education is already underway in England. Canada "euthanized" 10,000 people last year. Criminal finance destroyed capitalism in the name of capitalism. Our children can't read and entire generation's of American youth have no future. America is in an open war with would be totalitarian world financial monarchist's. You and your troublesome little Constitution is in their way.
You should learn to distinguish between a patsy and a stooge. Biden qualifies as Putin's, to say nothing of China's (even worse)-- patsy--or he did until reality ran over him like an 18-wheeler doing 110 mph. But even the demented and moronic Biden was never Putin's stooge.
I'm sorry, that is shortsighted at best. Yes our physical borders are important and they are dropping the ball. But abandoning all borders everywhere is a whole 'nother scale of thing.
Nope. It’s very clear sighted. People like you will parrot the old fight them there rather than here trope. Yet with a wide open border, who the hell knows which enemy is coming in unopposed.
When the bombs start going off in American cities, will you get it then?
Don't forget that when Ukraine lost the Crimea, the same nitwits were in charge of the State Department as the ones who got Ukraine invaded. Does the name "Victoria Nuland" ring a bell? And Jake Sullivan as National Security Advisor is beyond laughable.
I completely agree. Can’t compare 2015 to 2023. Deterring Russia invading compare to getting in a ground war with Russia are two completely different things.
Exactly. After the author drew that false comparison, I had trouble taking him seriously.
Like: “The thing that changed it for me is that America is not as strong as it used to be,”
I went through an identical evolution in my thoughts on nation building, but the change for me had nothing to do with my perception of America;s power, but the realization that you just can't drop our government into any culture. The US has 250 years of freedom, and we assume that we can 'nation build' by simply imposing it on cultures that have been 'ruled' for millennia. In some cases, these 'sovereign nations' were collections of tribes, some that have a history of being nomadic.
We really haven't had a consistent philosophy regarding our interventions over my time on earth, other than to do whatever it takes to pump trillions into our MIC.
Dwight was right about that, as well as the Science/media IC.
I am a mom. I would never tell another mom how to run her house and raise her children. I am appalled that the U.S. got away with doing just that for so long. And we still are, unfortunately.
Yeah, the moms really disappointed me during the pandemic, and the '20 and '22 elections.
What our society did to our kids the last three years was incomprehensible, and many moms, in my town anyway, led the charge to close schools and knit masks.
OTOH, I think they've picked up the gauntlet on school boards, which is sorely needed.
The moms on the left closed schools and loved masks. The moms on the right are trying to reform school boards. The Free Press would call them right wingers :(
I've noticed TFP catches heat from reader's much more than other Substack author's. I think TFP could get a little deeper into topic's than they do. I also think they're getting a little better at it.
Good thoughts. The “liberalism” preached by the likes of Brett Stevens and others from the Foreign Policy Establishment carries with it a false premise, that other cultures will embrace what the US is attempting to export, or nation build.
If things keep going the way they are south of the border, I could see US intervention in Mexico to deal with the Narco shadow government in Mexico. Unlike Russia, it won't be a land grab. but the elimination of the Narcos, which have now been building for five decades, and taken over the government at all levels.
I haven't read a single comment of his that isn't consistent with my beliefs. He's got he best message of any candidate I've been aware of in my lifetime. I hope Trump doesn't simply steamroll him, and figures out how to work with him.
I had to look up who that was and I was impressed by what he said in his candidacy video. I've always voted democrat but will gladly vote for him. Time to get back to the basic principles of character that makes America the greatest country in the world.
The psyop has made our national dialogue so top heavy with propaganda we need a shift back to a centered basic and the Constitution as "the" frame of reference. I've discovered that thinking of myself as a citizen in a lawful Constitutional Republic vs. a "democracy" changes my perspective and add's to my clarity. The word "democracy" has been distorted and exploited to the point that it mean's almost nothing.
Russia did not "poach" anything -- over 90% of Crimean residents identify as Russian, and definitely prefer being part of Russia rather than live under the current Kiev regime.
Crimea is historically Russian and belongs to Russia far more legitimately than to any other country. While the percentage of folks identifying as Russian is not quite that high in the Luhansk and Donetsk provinces, it is is still a clear majority -- which is why the anti-Slavic Ukrainian government was consistently and repeatedly shelling those regions from 2014 all the way up to Feb 2022, in an effort to prevent those people from seceding and joining Russia (which they have voted to do, on at least one occasion since 2008). The CIA and US State Department have worked since 2008 to support a coalition of literal Nazis in their (thus far successful) mission to ethnically cleanse pro-Russians from Ukraine. Hopefully, the "new right" and many other Americans are waking up to just how evil and insane are the forces that have hijacked our government increasingly since WWII -- how hell-bent they are on achieving total world domination at any cost.
I've heard (haven't verified) that Zelensky is a billionaire and own's a multi-million dollar mansion in Miami. Now add the Biden family and rumor's that the Ukraine was/is a money laundering center for Russian and EU oligarch's. Mark and Aaron have been doing some good reporting about the Ukraine on GRAY ZONE.
Yep. The reason this war is here is because we didn't intervene in 2014. Totally agree that Obama basically made China and Russia realize they can do what they want without consequences.
Given that. I think now putting the brakes on Putin is perhaps worse timing but at least it's got make china think twice about Taiwan. Deterrence is important.
I'll say one more thing. Tribalism is everywhere. I wholeheartedly believe that if dasantis was in power he would have probably done the same thing and you'd probably see troves of democrats protesting.
That’s certainly possible, Nati, but given DeSantis was in the military I would hope he would have cared more about the logistics of, and not just timing of, our exit from Afghanistan. Also, if the assumption that republicans tend to be ( or used to be) pro war is valid, I would assume a republican would have intervened in Crimea and Syria. All of this coming from some who voted for Obama twice and never thought I’d be in the position of questioning everything I once took as gospel. Better late than never I suppose!
Without Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2014, Ukraine in NATO would not have happened, at least not for decades, for the simple reason that a vast majority of Ukrainians didn't want NATO ... that is until they faced Russian invasion.
Mothers of soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines have never been on board the all war all the time train.
When Obama announced that my son couldn’t return fire if a “civilian” was within something like thirty feet of the identified shooter, I lost all respect for the civilian command structure and senior military staff.
Since then it’s been all downhill for the enlisted, culminating in the recruiting and retention disasters currently afflicting all branches.
Now I am certain that most people around the work are not capable of western style self governance and aren’t worth the risk. If they want it they can earn it for themselves.
As I taught my kids, things one earns are always more valued than things one is given.
I'm a Republican. I'm not anti-war. I'm just anti-"current joke of a U.S. president parades in Ukraine on Presidents Day of all days while ignoring a chemical disaster in our own country, after pledging to end endless wars and completely butchering our Afghanistan exit."
Show me a war worth fighting for. I want us to be noble and (gasp) "protect democracy." I really do.
But here and now? We're just a bunch of hypocrites. Angry, divided ones, at that. Maybe protecting democracy means getting our own house in order before we start bragging about how we're such great people cleaning up other people's messes.
And it's NEVER, as in NOT EVER, been about "spreading democracy" or "protecting democracy" or "humanitarian" causes or "human rights" or "eradicating terrorists or communists" or any other "enemy" de jour. Those are just the lies they tell the public to manufacture our consent. Rather, it has always ever been about destabilization, land grabs, resource extraction, human/labor exploitation, and enriching the MIC and other vested interests. There has NEVER been a foreign war the US "needed" to start or get involved in for "national security" or "protecting democracy" reasons. Not even the world wars. It has ALWAYS been about MONEY and POWER.
Stopped reading after the first few paragraphes because the premise made no sense. Supporting arming Ukraine in 2015 and wanting Biden to stop the flow of fentanyl into the country, close our borders, and visit Americans in need before going to Ukraine are not exact opposites. Did Desantis say stop funding Ukraine? If so, say so. If not, why write this?
Jeez. I googled is Desantis against providing equipment to Ukraine since the article didnt answer that question, and found the author's take almost the same as CNN's and democrats.org. Bari, Nellie I subscribe to you because I do not want to read CNN or democrat.org talking points.
We are not giving money to Ukraine. We have no money to give. We are mortgaging our children's future to meddle in something that is none of our business. With the awesome successes of Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Syria you would think we could imagine how Ukraine will turn out.
Important point here, we're giving the hardware we bought a decade ago, so we can give money to huge Democrat-led companies who build more hardware.
They're not giving money to Ukraine so much as to the military-industrial complex that Democrats hated and opposed so much until its leadership professed their allegiance to the Woke.
My friends at Raytheon said the company explicitly told them they won't hire or promote white men if they can avoid it. Their executive board has been entirely Democrats for years.
That's why Democrats are pro-war now. The typical D foot soldier doesn't know what changed, they just follow the marching orders on Twitter.
Austerity is the assured outcome of our debt, likely for our kids. All to make sure more Ukrainians die? It’s not impacting the outcome, it’s taxpayer reallocation to the people who profit from war. I’m 40. My entire adult life the US neos have done nothing but reallocate tax dollars to ensure more dead people in other parts of the world. The same idiots from Bush and Obama are back with Biden with the same disastrous outcomes being the best case scenario. Sad.
Good point. We are giving our children's and grandchildren's money. But we are too giving our money - it's just that it is coming from our pensions and 401k's that are either fixed or can't possibly keep pace with inflation. That comfortable retirement I worked for decades to enjoy is evaporating.
Agreed it should be none of our business, but the irony is that it wouldn't even be happening if it weren't for US/NATO hegemony and our influencing of the Ukrainian coup in 2014 (let alone our actions since the fall of the USSR).
It isn't that we conservatives are anti-war. We're not. We're just against an essentially progressive policy of believing that we must lavish American attention and treasure on every stinking backwater (shithole to be honest, Trump was being brutally honest) in the world in order to change it. The first campaign in Afghanistan was a brilliant operation with the Northern Alliance. One and done. Crush the Taliban and leave it to the Afghans to fix their own country. Same with Iraq. Saddam just couldn't stop running his mouth after 9-11 and brutalizing his own people. OK, crush his army once in for all and leave. But no. Nation build and stay for 20 years. An exercise run “by a bunch of fucking incompetents and ideologues who had taken our country down a path of destruction,” Dreher said. “And for what?” Same in Ukraine. After Obama's meddling got the Crimea severed, Trump armed them and got the situation stabilized. Then came the Biden Cabal - led by the odious Vicki Nuland - and, within a year, we had a major war break out in Eastern Europe. So, no, we're not anti-war and conservatives will remain the ones who actually fight the wars. We want a strong defense that will put fear in the heart of any aggressor. We were sick of seeing our sons get killed and maimed for some progressive wet dream of nation building and meddling by State Department and CIA cretins.
So I agree, to a point, Bruce. Afghanistan should have been special ops only, wipe out the Taliban, assassinate its leader and Bin Laden - and leave. The operation with Northern Alliance worked and we should have left it to them to somehow work out the complexity that is Afghanistan.
Iraq, in my humble opinion, is the largest foreign policy mistake America has made since Viet Nam. We can blame Dick (Cheney) and Donald (Rumsfeld) for that gem..Even an arm chair strategist could see that Saddam was needed as a counter weight to Iran. Saddam was a monster but he could have been our monster. I still think ISIS would never have occurred had Saddam remained in power, and he could have made Iraq very infertile ground for Al Qaida. He never had weapons of mass destruction - we all knew that. He was a more vicious version of Saudi Arabia who we might have been able to control had we tried.
Nation building for both those countries were utter failures from the political establishment of both parties, and an example of American hubris at its worst.
Had we left Saddam in place, Iraq and Iran would likely still be decimating each other. That'd have been a good thing from a US perspective. Shame on Bush Junior and his -Cheney-lead Neocons. Of course those neocons are now good buddies of the progs.
I’ve always favored a free Kurdistan. Of all the peoples in the Middle East, the Kurds deserve their own country. That could have been in a deal made with Saddam had we left him in power - I agree.
Same here. I think the major impediment has always been Turkey. We were afraid to piss off Turkey. So look where that has gotten us with them. Again, we'd be better off with Kurdistan on their border as well, preoccupying them.
Read what I wrote. We started them. They were fine. Break their toys and leave. But we let the DC establishment take over and they created a two-decades long disaster. Paul Bremer anyone?
I stand corrected, I must have read it quickly. Fundamentally agree with the point of view you have expressed here. Especially given the additional context of your reply to me.
Comprof is a troll, not interested in respectful dialog. I tried. Learned my lesson and now ignore the comments he or she leaves like excrement; well no, excrement makes things grow not wilt
I vote Republican now, but even as a barely legal drinking age kid I opposed Iraq. Bush was a disaster. I don’t understand the self identity of a political party. I’m conservative - I believe in conserving life, the Earth, and culture while allowing it to change through open debate and genuinely better ideas. Democrats when I could first vote were slightly close to my values. Today they are child hating monsters intent in destroying the Earth and this country in the name of ridiculous delusions of being little Gods. I will always have a mix of moderately conservative values with support for traditional liberal approaches to life. I’m not a politician. I don’t have a political party (though after Covid I may never find a Democrat worth voting for again). As a society we need to lay the blame on the people and policies that are destructive. We should own as individuals what things we supported that we shouldn’t have, but we shouldn’t wrap up our personal identity of ourselves as if we are politicians affiliated with a particular party (unless of course you are a politician).
You wrote: "It isn't that we conservatives are anti-war. We're not. " Actually, every rational being is "antiwar". Proud to call myself that. And I'm conservative on lots of things. But, will to defend myself and family. And country. And assist those being attacked. But not willing to engage in endless war or start WWIII.
Yes, but then there is the immutable human nature and the fact that there will always be some a-hole looking to take land or power or wealth. So, as been observed, again and again, the best way to avoid war is to be the best armed, meanest mf on the block. Something that the senile imbecile ruling us is determined to destroy. And I fear that the price we will pay for that will be fearsome.
I just reread the article, thought I'd share some thoughts here as this group chat is interesting.
This article is crap.
"A November 2022 Morning Consult poll showed that nearly half of Republicans supported “greater isolationism.”" - "isolationism" is a worthless abstraction. The whole thread on the topic is so general that it says nothing useful.
"Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee’s slamming “free trade.” - come on, read the article you linked to, that wasn't what he was actually saying. Can't tell if the author is ignorant, lazy, lacking self-awareness or all of the above.
“White faces from the West are not going to go into the Middle East and solve their problems for them. The only time that sort of thing has been effective is in Japan at the end of World War II, when we just dropped two fucking atomic bombs on those people.” -- WTF - I come to FreePress for well reasoned articles not racist guilt trips.
The conversation here in the comments was useful. I liked the line in the article about "Manufactured Consent" - nicely turned phrase.
The value I got from the article was the thought process its utter shallowness triggered in me. Sigh, so disappointing. And this guy is Bari's Chief of Staff? He's trying but wow does he have a lot to learn.
There are no Republicans/Conservatives. There are no Democrats/Liberals. There are only Americans with widely diverse conceptions of right and wrong, but with a broad agreement on following the Constitution. And there are two warring parties, who wish to use identity politics to turn Americans on each other by inducing them to ally with one party against the other, in a Cain and Abel kind of quarrel, so the party can benefit in their power and influence at the expense of the other. How can we create peace abroad when we are at war with one another at home?
I see us as those brainwashed by the propaganda machine and those outside of it. I watched my generation redefine racism, adopt Marxism, and condemn anybody that won't. I watch them demonstrate shocking hypocrisy and change their values and opinions overnight if pop culture says to. They went from "COVID is a right wing conspiracy theory" to "right wingers are COVID denialists" in less than a month, with no self awareness whatsoever. I watch them overtly support racist and sexist discrimination because they think they're fighting racism and sexism. I watch them riot all over the country because social media said to. I could go on with twenty years of examples. We have separated into Americans and Marxists. We are not one people and I don't think we ever could be again.
"Truth, freedom, equal rights and justice" is a value set fundamentally incompatible with "diversity equity and inclusion." We are defined by the spiritual forces we follow. "People don't have ideas, ideas have people."
"When the vast majority of the country agreed that our values are freedom, independence, and justice."
Again, when precisely was that? I'd argue the only time the U.S. had a sense of palpable national unity post-civil rights was when 9/11 occurred IMO. And even that didn't last that long.
We could be again. Look at England after it's big civil war. Those people (Catholics vs Protestants, basically) never thought they could be one people again, but they look like they are to me. Even more so after Brexit.
I'm not sure I agree with you, although the words sound nice. In a poll over 60% of Democrats said they'd run away if America were invaded. Somebody is supporting open borders and illegal immigration. Somebody is supporting racial division. Somebody is supporting mutilating children. Somebody is voting the Party that promotes this. Somebody is putting up law signs saying "Hate has no home here" or "No person is illegal." Just who might they be?
Progressives, starting with Woodrow Wilson, have always used the "Make the world safe for Democracy" trope to push their never-ending wars. They led us into the disaster of WWI, and have been spouting the same nonsense ever since. They use "spreading Democracy to the world" as cover for their firm belief that they are the experts who should rule the world. War profiteers are more than happy to support Progressive delusions.
You raise an interesting point. I wonder what the world would have looked like if there hadn't been American troops to turn back the 1918 Ludendorf offensive.
It is interesting to speculate. My guess is that Prussia/Germany would have won, but only on the continent; Hitler would very likely never have risen beyond Corporal. There would still probably be huge numbers of Jews in northern Europe, particularly Germany. Russia would likely not have expanded into the Soviet Union, or not so far to the west.
And I'm one of those Republicans that blindly accepted the CIA/FBI narratives for 60 of my 66 year. It was a lot easier for them to operate when traditional media was so easily controlled, but now that social media has made so many other viewpoints, and evidence, available to the public, I feel gullible and betrayed. I'm not the only one, as the entire party seems to have shifted it's feelings on many formerly 'Conservative' positions.
I think you make an excellent point. Let's not under-estimate the work of people like Matt Taibbi, Glenn Greenwald and our very own Bari Weiss. They are part of this awakening. The lies are being exposed and that's why opinions are shifting.
I am slightly younger than you and feel the same. I look back in horror at my naivete after 9/11 which planted many of the seeds for the clown show we see now via the Patriot act.
I, too, fell for the Patriot Act at the time. It was terrifying to feel so vulnerable to an organization of fanatical murderers. It didn't help that the Left was insisting (falsely) that the fanaticism had nothing at all to do with Islam.
By 2004, my essential classical liberalism had reasserted itself. But it is embarrassing to realize that I fell for "safety at any cost."
Because once rights are ceded/taken away, they are (almost?) impossible to get back. And FEAR is the tool used by those in power to manipulate the people into giving up their rights (aka manufactured consent). E.G. 9/11 -> Patriot Act, Red Scare -> McCarthyism, Covid -> lockdowns/mask mandates/vax passports.
I wish you were right, but I do not think there is "broad agreement on following the Constitution". The people who tend to align themselves with the Democrats increasingly want to eliminate the electoral college, have already eliminated the point and power of the Senate by making them popularly elected, and generally want to change the Constitution, not using the mechanisms created for that purpose (Congress) but by using the unelected judiciary to do it.
Agreed, except for this: "...but with a broad agreement on following the Constitution." - There are too many (and growing) who wish to do away with (and/or are actively violating) the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th and 10th amendments.
But yes, the government's 'Divide and Conquer' strategy is working very well to keep the people fighting amongst themselves so they don't turn their torches and pitchforks on those in power. If only most people realized they were being manipulated in this way, We the People could take our power back.
I mean, I was around when the "coalition of the willing" went into Iraq to neutralize a nonexistent threat, and wound up ruining the country, killing hundreds of thousands, ultimately for nothing. And hey 20 years of Afghanistan and tens of thousands of drone strikes all over the world, nothing to see there, just a bunch of dead nobodies that we don't care about.
So perhaps the "anti war right" is just people who are sick of the tail of destruction and tragedy to follows US policy everywhere it goes.
And frankly, the Free Press is very one sided about the whole Ukraine conflict. Its like, you really believe Putin is a madman who woke up one day and decided to invade his neighbour and conduct genocide. Grow up, this is the real world and if you actually bothered to cover this subject like you do others you'd see how this war was totally avoidable but yet ultimately inevitable given the actions of 3rd parties i.e not Russia nor Ukraine
Exactly this: "Perhaps the 'anti war right' is just people who are sick of the tail of destruction and tragedy [that] follows US policy everywhere it goes."
One wonders where Code Pink is. They kind of disappeared when the Obama came didn’t they? And I guess Cindy Sheehan became persona non grata at the same time.
The Libertarian Party motivated the "Rage Against the War Machine" rally in DC (February 19) and had indicated that, among others, the Code Pink people would make a showing.
I did not distinguish any Code Pink people there on that crisp, blue afternoon. But the crowd was diverse. The "Black Panther Party" provided security. I got handed literature from a host of Old School lefty groups ... as well as from the Libertarians.
Count me in. It ain't rocket surgery. Over the decades I have watched from the sidelines as American citizens - the titular masters of their government - have been brushed aside by that government in its profligate spending and reckless pursuit of foreign adventuring - while it couldn't care less about the welfare of those who pay all the bills for it.
It is so disheartening. Just the briefest of research reveals that not only are Americans the hardest-working and most productive on the planet, their work produces enough goods and services that Every One of them could live comfortable lives, free from worries about groceries or gas for their cars. Families could easily live on one paycheck, freeing a spouse to spend full time making a home for that family instead of paying her/his part of the bills each month. Home ownership - now out of reach for nearly all young men and women starting their lives together - would be easily WITHIN reach.
Why is it not? Well, where would you like to start? $85B USD of hardware, abandoned in the desert? Gone. Over $100B - and counting - to defend the borders of a country few can find on a map, after provoking Russia into a war of attrition after threatening to place a NATO ally on its border? Flooding the nation with 2-3 million illegal aliens, many, if not most of whom will end up on the public dole?
No, as the old song goes, we could all be wearing Spandex, but that is not going to happen. Why? Because we are lazy? No, because people who bear no consequence for wrong decisions are driving us over the cliff. You know the quote from the immortal Pogo the Possum: we have met the enemy, and he is us.
What did you think would happen when America elected (maybe) a senile grifter who was never more than a mediocre, lifelong senator and his cackling harridan running mate? And people pretend that this is normal. To have the leader of the free world in a diaper, falling up stairs and mumbling and snarling incoherently?
I used to be an anti-war liberal, but the left has lost their minds and drifted so far from the values I thought they represented. I guess this now makes me an "anti-war conservative." I'm okay with that.
The author makes too many unsupported generalizations about the “right” and “left” wings. The fact is that more and more AMERICANS are seeing the consequences of poor policies playing out in our own lives. Foreign wars come home quickly when it’s my outstanding grandson being offered up as cannon fodder by a Marine Corps leadership that has lost its compass and mind. Pronoun obsession is just a symptom of the larger degradation of our military readiness by people who should have never been commissioned to begin with. War fighting is ugly, and should not be undertaken lightly. We must all become “citizen soldiers” to keep in check an evolved military that can no longer clearly define its mission as defense of the country.
Mar 2, 2023·edited Mar 2, 2023Liked by Isaac Grafstein
Overall, this article is on-point. The one thing I would push back on is the idea that opposing Democrats is a factor driving conservatives to become anti-interventionist. This is the type of pettiness that characterizes the left, not the right.
And perhaps there should have been more mention of the fact that America is now beyond bankrupt. Once upon a time, we could afford to be the world's unpaid police force. Those days are long gone. And anyone who has driven more than a few miles on American roads can see and feel the decline.
The authoritarian Left and authoritarian Right will do and say whatever it takes in the acquisition and maintenance of power. I'm a small "L" libertarian and a retired Marine who believes in a strong military for deterrence and defense, but I also believe that throwing away the lives of young Americans for wars of choice is completely immoral.
No one is calling for withdrawing from the world economically or diplomaticaly. I find it insane and enraging that war hawks on both sides have managed to redefine the desire to avoid wars of choice as "isolationism."
It's just another (meaningless) derogatory term thrown around to denounce anyone who disagrees with the Establishment narrative; like transphobe, racist, ableist, conspiracy theorist, far-right, etc.
Mr. Grafstein writes, "...yes, the anti-war movement in America used to be on the left..."
OR maybe "left" and "right" are meaningless distinctions. A point that's emphasized further down in the article when Mr. Grafstein quotes a podcaster observing, "It’s just marketing...People want to root for one side or the other."
The Ukraine War, as it's being fought now, is unwinnable. The West wins it when Putin drops dead (which has to happen sooner or later.). Russia wins it when the U.S. realizes they'd get a better return on their investment by setting fire to $13 billion in the Washington Mall and selling the resulting video to pay-per-view.
I feel for the individuals whose lives have been ruined by various politicians' delusions of manifest destiny and recall lines written by the long dead and obscure Greek philosopher Bion:
China and Putin win this war when they redefine the financial system to get away from dollar hegemony and collapse the finances of the West, and when NATO backs off from Ukraine in global humiliation. They're using our own cold war playbook against us, and it's working because our leadership are shockingly stupid and corrupt.
On the other side, NATO wins if Putin's support cracks and he becomes an international pariah. That isn't happening. The West has absolutely no strategy here but they're digging their heels in deeper. They thought their initial financial and propaganda assaults would collapse Russian support, and the opposite happened.
This war might spell the end of the USA 's perceived leadership position in the world. China just last week explicitly said that's their goal.
If you haven't already, you might want to read Lionel Shriver's "The Mandibles." The main driver of the plot is the rise of a competing international currency, the collapse of the dollar, and the effects on the U.S. economic system. The results are... not good.
(It's also a pretty vicious social satire as well, one that really resonates.)
It does plod through a fair amount of tedious exposition about currencies, which I ended up skimming through, but again, the social satire is brutal (no class or race goes unscathed).
You also get a sense of what Venezuela has gone through over the past couple of decades.
The US military and intelligence apparatus is quite happy to have the war continue in order to see the ongoing degradation of the Russian armed forces. Their losses in blood and treasure in Ukraine are palpable, and as it continues, will impair Russia's conventional military ability to go head to head with anyone - at least in the near future.
I can certainly agree with you on its immorality. Then again, when has our country ever really been moral in its geopolitical aims? We've been friends of dictators when it suited us, overthrown governments, assassinated leaders...
As for exit strategy, you don't see one, I don't either, and I think no one can. The US wants to see Putin bleed here, of that I'm convinced - and where that takes everybody in a few months is anyone's guess..
And what about the Ukraine people? Just collateral damage? What happens when they run out of bodies to throw into the meat grinder? Russia has a population of over 146 million, Ukraine less than 37 million and losing more every day. Do the math.
Ah, Timothy you're making the mistake of assuming I agree with what I described. I'm only writing what I think the US is planning going forward..since the comment I was responding to said we had no strategy..
I've heard that "strategy" expressed by the usual warmongering senators intent on fighting to the last Ukrainian. I was simply pointing out its flaws. If you have a better one I'd love to hear it.
Anyone who still believes that is fooling themselves. Russia is MUCH stronger and more powerful than Western leaders (and their lackey media) would have us believe. Relatively speaking (in terms of money, equipment and manpower) Russia is crushing Ukraine. Russia could very easily take Ukraine in its entirety if it wanted. But that's not its goal. You don't have to believe me. But do check out what Scott Ritter, John Mearsheimer, Chas Freeman, Noam Chomsky, among others have to say.
If your scenario is the case, then Putin cannot be too happy as his commanders as well as himself look like feckless fools in the eyes of the West, with Russia's projection of military prowess and the fear it invokes in other nations basically in the toilet.
The Russian Bear doesn't look like one at the moment, but if that's Putin's intention, to try to fool us with all his casualties on the battlefield, then credit to him for trying to pull the bloody soaked wool over our eyes..
From everything I've read and seen from several different sources, it's not Putin trying to fool everyone. Rather, it's the West massively exaggerating Russian "losses" while minimizing Ukrainian losses (so as to make the public believe that all the money & equipment we're throwing at this boondoggle is worth it), when in reality it's the opposite. So for those who follow mainstream/legacy media, they're not privy to the realities on the ground. Again, check out the perspectives of the experts I listed.
Suppose you're right. I still cannot see it being in Putin's interest to stretch this out any longer than he has to. The longer he stays at it the sooner NATO fully arms up, the quicker Sweden and Finland become members, the longer the West supplies weapons to Ukraine, the more popular Zelensky becomes, the more doubtful China is in (tacitly) supporting Russia, the less respect outlaw states such as North Korea, Iran, Syria et al have in Putin's power, and more importantly - the less patience critics within Russia have in Putin. He does have them, they've been vocal and angry about Russia's performance in Ukraine, and I wonder how secure he feels at home sitting at that very long table of his.
The anti-war movement on the left has always been largely self interest - young people not wanting to get drafted to actually fight the war. The over-arching theme of leftists, starting with Woodrow Wilson, has been promoting wars to "Make the world safe for democracy", or to spread "democracy to the world". In reality, they want to spread Progressive utopia to every corner of the earth, to be ruled by Progressive experts.
Agreed. Bush also pursued this path. I was in favor of both IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN but as six months operations as a “teaching moment” for the rest of the bad actors.
Trump clarified things and brought back traditional American foreign policy. A strong military. Kinetic war ONLY if it is a direct American interest with clear and achievable aims. Seeking good and peaceful relations with ALL countries. FAIR trade not free trade. Secure borders. AMERICA FIRST NOT LAST.
The left never learns from history. They are convinced that their intentions are virtuous. That’s all that matters. When things go bad, they have no regrets. They meant well, ya’ know.
Orange Man Not Bad! The establishment hated him for exposing them. Them and their media and social media puppets. He saw the corruption and tried to fix it but after Obummer established control over media by hiring the top media spouses it was “a mountain too high”. They were not going to let Trump win at any cost. Four years of unrelenting attacks from all sides. Hell it hadn’t stopped yet! Think about it- 50 intell swearing Trump bad, media’s incomprehensible attacks along with all the lies. He saw the evil and it was them. I don’t know if anyone could have sustained this but they should be happy now with Biden/Harris. DEI, “Woke universities”, trans whatever! Just dream- if Trump would have won, we would not face any of the world or domestic issues we face today but alas one could only dream.
It’s an interesting shift the nation and the party has gone through. Many of us were naive after 9-11, but the nation has learned a painful lesson. It’s not shocking that we’re reevaluating our current national priorities on the world stage after such costly and failed wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The GOP is the party of the military and has a much higher number of members who have served in the US military and have seen first hand the impact of US military commitments in loss of life and limb. While the vast majority of Democrat voters who support arming and funding a U.S. commitment to the Ukrainian war have never considered military service themselves or for their children. Somewhat ironic.
I had a child in the military and when Trump told the military to withdraw from Syria and the Pentagon lied about it a Washington Post reporter had the gall to post laugh emojis. What little respect I may have had for our press left and I now have an open loathing for it. Her children/cousins/friends/relatives will never have their lives put in danger from a foreign war. She just found it amusing that our generals basically committed treason and put our soldiers lives at risk because it scored some points on Trump. I won't utter out loud all the words in my head to describe that vapid cow.
It's stunning what has been done to the American people — and the people of the world — just to "score some points on Trump." Can you say "lab leak is a conspiracy theory"?
Democrats are the party of Big Finance and the corporate world, who are making loads of money off of sending Ukrainian neo-Nazis to get killed by Russians. It's a win all over for them.
Regarding DeSantis’ pivot, there’s a big difference between 2015 and today that doesn’t have to do with who the Commander in Chief is. Under President Obama we let Russia cross a red line and annex Crimea. We continued down the path of possible NATO entry for Ukraine, escalating Russia’s fear of a perceived threat. Under President Biden we exited Afghanistan in a spectacularly incompetent fashion, giving an opening for Putin to expand what he had already poached. I’m not saying politics may not pay a role, but to ignore the actions that led us to where we are now just to set up a tidy juxtaposition doesn’t do the author or his conclusions credit.
AND our border has never been so abandoned. How in good conscience we can secure Ukraines borders and not our own is madness.
American leaders are supposed to protect America’s interests first.
It is intentional policy. The consequence is chaos, a destabilized nation and a citizenry under continued stress and assault. The LIE has become so shaky and transparent the DNC/Biden/CCP/Davos juggernaut is now working to criminalize all concerned American citizen's. Mass arrest's for thought and speech crime's and political re-education is already underway in England. Canada "euthanized" 10,000 people last year. Criminal finance destroyed capitalism in the name of capitalism. Our children can't read and entire generation's of American youth have no future. America is in an open war with would be totalitarian world financial monarchist's. You and your troublesome little Constitution is in their way.
It would be over if not for the second amendment.
God bless the 2nd Amendment! It is “still standing”
We must keep it that way.
👍🏻👍🏻
You should learn to distinguish between a patsy and a stooge. Biden qualifies as Putin's, to say nothing of China's (even worse)-- patsy--or he did until reality ran over him like an 18-wheeler doing 110 mph. But even the demented and moronic Biden was never Putin's stooge.
I'm sorry, that is shortsighted at best. Yes our physical borders are important and they are dropping the ball. But abandoning all borders everywhere is a whole 'nother scale of thing.
Nope. It’s very clear sighted. People like you will parrot the old fight them there rather than here trope. Yet with a wide open border, who the hell knows which enemy is coming in unopposed.
When the bombs start going off in American cities, will you get it then?
Don't forget that when Ukraine lost the Crimea, the same nitwits were in charge of the State Department as the ones who got Ukraine invaded. Does the name "Victoria Nuland" ring a bell? And Jake Sullivan as National Security Advisor is beyond laughable.
Clown car diplomacy
Yep. (Greenwald has recently had some good report's on that.)
I completely agree. Can’t compare 2015 to 2023. Deterring Russia invading compare to getting in a ground war with Russia are two completely different things.
Exactly. After the author drew that false comparison, I had trouble taking him seriously.
Like: “The thing that changed it for me is that America is not as strong as it used to be,”
I went through an identical evolution in my thoughts on nation building, but the change for me had nothing to do with my perception of America;s power, but the realization that you just can't drop our government into any culture. The US has 250 years of freedom, and we assume that we can 'nation build' by simply imposing it on cultures that have been 'ruled' for millennia. In some cases, these 'sovereign nations' were collections of tribes, some that have a history of being nomadic.
We really haven't had a consistent philosophy regarding our interventions over my time on earth, other than to do whatever it takes to pump trillions into our MIC.
Dwight was right about that, as well as the Science/media IC.
I am a mom. I would never tell another mom how to run her house and raise her children. I am appalled that the U.S. got away with doing just that for so long. And we still are, unfortunately.
Yeah, the moms really disappointed me during the pandemic, and the '20 and '22 elections.
What our society did to our kids the last three years was incomprehensible, and many moms, in my town anyway, led the charge to close schools and knit masks.
OTOH, I think they've picked up the gauntlet on school boards, which is sorely needed.
The moms on the left closed schools and loved masks. The moms on the right are trying to reform school boards. The Free Press would call them right wingers :(
I've noticed TFP catches heat from reader's much more than other Substack author's. I think TFP could get a little deeper into topic's than they do. I also think they're getting a little better at it.
The moms you are referencing are not the ones seeking to hold the school board's accountable.
Good thoughts. The “liberalism” preached by the likes of Brett Stevens and others from the Foreign Policy Establishment carries with it a false premise, that other cultures will embrace what the US is attempting to export, or nation build.
Correct.
If things keep going the way they are south of the border, I could see US intervention in Mexico to deal with the Narco shadow government in Mexico. Unlike Russia, it won't be a land grab. but the elimination of the Narcos, which have now been building for five decades, and taken over the government at all levels.
Vivek 2024. On his to-do list.
I haven't read a single comment of his that isn't consistent with my beliefs. He's got he best message of any candidate I've been aware of in my lifetime. I hope Trump doesn't simply steamroll him, and figures out how to work with him.
I hope Trump goes away.
But if he doesn’t I think Vivek will be honorable towards him, and that will make Trump look petty and pathetic (as he already does)
I hope so too.
I had to look up who that was and I was impressed by what he said in his candidacy video. I've always voted democrat but will gladly vote for him. Time to get back to the basic principles of character that makes America the greatest country in the world.
The psyop has made our national dialogue so top heavy with propaganda we need a shift back to a centered basic and the Constitution as "the" frame of reference. I've discovered that thinking of myself as a citizen in a lawful Constitutional Republic vs. a "democracy" changes my perspective and add's to my clarity. The word "democracy" has been distorted and exploited to the point that it mean's almost nothing.
Both Democrats and Republicans need to know that nobody's vote is a sure thing.
I like Vivek love his books!
Russia did not "poach" anything -- over 90% of Crimean residents identify as Russian, and definitely prefer being part of Russia rather than live under the current Kiev regime.
Crimea is historically Russian and belongs to Russia far more legitimately than to any other country. While the percentage of folks identifying as Russian is not quite that high in the Luhansk and Donetsk provinces, it is is still a clear majority -- which is why the anti-Slavic Ukrainian government was consistently and repeatedly shelling those regions from 2014 all the way up to Feb 2022, in an effort to prevent those people from seceding and joining Russia (which they have voted to do, on at least one occasion since 2008). The CIA and US State Department have worked since 2008 to support a coalition of literal Nazis in their (thus far successful) mission to ethnically cleanse pro-Russians from Ukraine. Hopefully, the "new right" and many other Americans are waking up to just how evil and insane are the forces that have hijacked our government increasingly since WWII -- how hell-bent they are on achieving total world domination at any cost.
I've heard (haven't verified) that Zelensky is a billionaire and own's a multi-million dollar mansion in Miami. Now add the Biden family and rumor's that the Ukraine was/is a money laundering center for Russian and EU oligarch's. Mark and Aaron have been doing some good reporting about the Ukraine on GRAY ZONE.
Yeah, let's fill this thread with idle gossip based on hear-say one "hasn't verified". Good plan!
I heard Mike R is a pedophile.
Yep. The reason this war is here is because we didn't intervene in 2014. Totally agree that Obama basically made China and Russia realize they can do what they want without consequences.
Given that. I think now putting the brakes on Putin is perhaps worse timing but at least it's got make china think twice about Taiwan. Deterrence is important.
I'll say one more thing. Tribalism is everywhere. I wholeheartedly believe that if dasantis was in power he would have probably done the same thing and you'd probably see troves of democrats protesting.
(I'm a centrist of sorts).
That’s certainly possible, Nati, but given DeSantis was in the military I would hope he would have cared more about the logistics of, and not just timing of, our exit from Afghanistan. Also, if the assumption that republicans tend to be ( or used to be) pro war is valid, I would assume a republican would have intervened in Crimea and Syria. All of this coming from some who voted for Obama twice and never thought I’d be in the position of questioning everything I once took as gospel. Better late than never I suppose!
People also learn new information and adjust accordingly.
One would hope...
Without Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2014, Ukraine in NATO would not have happened, at least not for decades, for the simple reason that a vast majority of Ukrainians didn't want NATO ... that is until they faced Russian invasion.
Well said.
Mothers of soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines have never been on board the all war all the time train.
When Obama announced that my son couldn’t return fire if a “civilian” was within something like thirty feet of the identified shooter, I lost all respect for the civilian command structure and senior military staff.
Since then it’s been all downhill for the enlisted, culminating in the recruiting and retention disasters currently afflicting all branches.
Now I am certain that most people around the work are not capable of western style self governance and aren’t worth the risk. If they want it they can earn it for themselves.
As I taught my kids, things one earns are always more valued than things one is given.
Yep. Leading by example seems to work.
I'm a Republican. I'm not anti-war. I'm just anti-"current joke of a U.S. president parades in Ukraine on Presidents Day of all days while ignoring a chemical disaster in our own country, after pledging to end endless wars and completely butchering our Afghanistan exit."
Show me a war worth fighting for. I want us to be noble and (gasp) "protect democracy." I really do.
But here and now? We're just a bunch of hypocrites. Angry, divided ones, at that. Maybe protecting democracy means getting our own house in order before we start bragging about how we're such great people cleaning up other people's messes.
Getting our own house in order-absolutely correct, SK.
And it's NEVER, as in NOT EVER, been about "spreading democracy" or "protecting democracy" or "humanitarian" causes or "human rights" or "eradicating terrorists or communists" or any other "enemy" de jour. Those are just the lies they tell the public to manufacture our consent. Rather, it has always ever been about destabilization, land grabs, resource extraction, human/labor exploitation, and enriching the MIC and other vested interests. There has NEVER been a foreign war the US "needed" to start or get involved in for "national security" or "protecting democracy" reasons. Not even the world wars. It has ALWAYS been about MONEY and POWER.
Stopped reading after the first few paragraphes because the premise made no sense. Supporting arming Ukraine in 2015 and wanting Biden to stop the flow of fentanyl into the country, close our borders, and visit Americans in need before going to Ukraine are not exact opposites. Did Desantis say stop funding Ukraine? If so, say so. If not, why write this?
Jeez. I googled is Desantis against providing equipment to Ukraine since the article didnt answer that question, and found the author's take almost the same as CNN's and democrats.org. Bari, Nellie I subscribe to you because I do not want to read CNN or democrat.org talking points.
Exactly! It's very disappointing to see how often they cite mainstream sources like NYT, WaPo, etc.
My thoughts exactly as yours
We are not giving money to Ukraine. We have no money to give. We are mortgaging our children's future to meddle in something that is none of our business. With the awesome successes of Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Syria you would think we could imagine how Ukraine will turn out.
30 TRILLION in debt. We are headed for financial Armageddon
$31.7, but who's quibbling?
Use the zeroes. It makes for a sobering optic.
Important point here, we're giving the hardware we bought a decade ago, so we can give money to huge Democrat-led companies who build more hardware.
They're not giving money to Ukraine so much as to the military-industrial complex that Democrats hated and opposed so much until its leadership professed their allegiance to the Woke.
My friends at Raytheon said the company explicitly told them they won't hire or promote white men if they can avoid it. Their executive board has been entirely Democrats for years.
That's why Democrats are pro-war now. The typical D foot soldier doesn't know what changed, they just follow the marching orders on Twitter.
Austerity is the assured outcome of our debt, likely for our kids. All to make sure more Ukrainians die? It’s not impacting the outcome, it’s taxpayer reallocation to the people who profit from war. I’m 40. My entire adult life the US neos have done nothing but reallocate tax dollars to ensure more dead people in other parts of the world. The same idiots from Bush and Obama are back with Biden with the same disastrous outcomes being the best case scenario. Sad.
Good point. We are giving our children's and grandchildren's money. But we are too giving our money - it's just that it is coming from our pensions and 401k's that are either fixed or can't possibly keep pace with inflation. That comfortable retirement I worked for decades to enjoy is evaporating.
Doesn't matter to the people lining their pocket's.
Agreed it should be none of our business, but the irony is that it wouldn't even be happening if it weren't for US/NATO hegemony and our influencing of the Ukrainian coup in 2014 (let alone our actions since the fall of the USSR).
It isn't that we conservatives are anti-war. We're not. We're just against an essentially progressive policy of believing that we must lavish American attention and treasure on every stinking backwater (shithole to be honest, Trump was being brutally honest) in the world in order to change it. The first campaign in Afghanistan was a brilliant operation with the Northern Alliance. One and done. Crush the Taliban and leave it to the Afghans to fix their own country. Same with Iraq. Saddam just couldn't stop running his mouth after 9-11 and brutalizing his own people. OK, crush his army once in for all and leave. But no. Nation build and stay for 20 years. An exercise run “by a bunch of fucking incompetents and ideologues who had taken our country down a path of destruction,” Dreher said. “And for what?” Same in Ukraine. After Obama's meddling got the Crimea severed, Trump armed them and got the situation stabilized. Then came the Biden Cabal - led by the odious Vicki Nuland - and, within a year, we had a major war break out in Eastern Europe. So, no, we're not anti-war and conservatives will remain the ones who actually fight the wars. We want a strong defense that will put fear in the heart of any aggressor. We were sick of seeing our sons get killed and maimed for some progressive wet dream of nation building and meddling by State Department and CIA cretins.
Go Roman or don’t go at all.
It’s time we went Roman on the cartels controlling our southern border.
We can't even go Roman on Antifa. The cartels are not quaking in their boots.
So I agree, to a point, Bruce. Afghanistan should have been special ops only, wipe out the Taliban, assassinate its leader and Bin Laden - and leave. The operation with Northern Alliance worked and we should have left it to them to somehow work out the complexity that is Afghanistan.
Iraq, in my humble opinion, is the largest foreign policy mistake America has made since Viet Nam. We can blame Dick (Cheney) and Donald (Rumsfeld) for that gem..Even an arm chair strategist could see that Saddam was needed as a counter weight to Iran. Saddam was a monster but he could have been our monster. I still think ISIS would never have occurred had Saddam remained in power, and he could have made Iraq very infertile ground for Al Qaida. He never had weapons of mass destruction - we all knew that. He was a more vicious version of Saudi Arabia who we might have been able to control had we tried.
Nation building for both those countries were utter failures from the political establishment of both parties, and an example of American hubris at its worst.
We could have left Saddam in place but severed Kurdistan or done other things to torment him. We are not really in disagreement.
Had we left Saddam in place, Iraq and Iran would likely still be decimating each other. That'd have been a good thing from a US perspective. Shame on Bush Junior and his -Cheney-lead Neocons. Of course those neocons are now good buddies of the progs.
I’ve always favored a free Kurdistan. Of all the peoples in the Middle East, the Kurds deserve their own country. That could have been in a deal made with Saddam had we left him in power - I agree.
Same here. I think the major impediment has always been Turkey. We were afraid to piss off Turkey. So look where that has gotten us with them. Again, we'd be better off with Kurdistan on their border as well, preoccupying them.
And Erdogan has made things worse. Another leader in the autocratic realm.
Kurdistan would have made a great counterweight to both Turkey and Assad’s Syria.
He was our monster in the 80's lol until he wasn't.
Yeah, but we republicans did start some of those wars too, to some extent out of messianic, fear driven, arrogance.
Read what I wrote. We started them. They were fine. Break their toys and leave. But we let the DC establishment take over and they created a two-decades long disaster. Paul Bremer anyone?
I stand corrected, I must have read it quickly. Fundamentally agree with the point of view you have expressed here. Especially given the additional context of your reply to me.
Thanks. I do the same thing. I wish I had a dollar for every retraction and apology I had to make. Well, except not for that racist imbecile, Comprof.
"racist imbecile" you nailed it. However you have insulted imbeciles all over the world.
Comprof is a troll, not interested in respectful dialog. I tried. Learned my lesson and now ignore the comments he or she leaves like excrement; well no, excrement makes things grow not wilt
I vote Republican now, but even as a barely legal drinking age kid I opposed Iraq. Bush was a disaster. I don’t understand the self identity of a political party. I’m conservative - I believe in conserving life, the Earth, and culture while allowing it to change through open debate and genuinely better ideas. Democrats when I could first vote were slightly close to my values. Today they are child hating monsters intent in destroying the Earth and this country in the name of ridiculous delusions of being little Gods. I will always have a mix of moderately conservative values with support for traditional liberal approaches to life. I’m not a politician. I don’t have a political party (though after Covid I may never find a Democrat worth voting for again). As a society we need to lay the blame on the people and policies that are destructive. We should own as individuals what things we supported that we shouldn’t have, but we shouldn’t wrap up our personal identity of ourselves as if we are politicians affiliated with a particular party (unless of course you are a politician).
Well said and I’m not far from your description of yourself. Though I have become much more politically aware and active since 2018
Agreed. I became an independent for those very reasons. Although, I find myself leaning more Libertarian as of late.
Bruce,.
You wrote: "It isn't that we conservatives are anti-war. We're not. " Actually, every rational being is "antiwar". Proud to call myself that. And I'm conservative on lots of things. But, will to defend myself and family. And country. And assist those being attacked. But not willing to engage in endless war or start WWIII.
Yes, but then there is the immutable human nature and the fact that there will always be some a-hole looking to take land or power or wealth. So, as been observed, again and again, the best way to avoid war is to be the best armed, meanest mf on the block. Something that the senile imbecile ruling us is determined to destroy. And I fear that the price we will pay for that will be fearsome.
I just reread the article, thought I'd share some thoughts here as this group chat is interesting.
This article is crap.
"A November 2022 Morning Consult poll showed that nearly half of Republicans supported “greater isolationism.”" - "isolationism" is a worthless abstraction. The whole thread on the topic is so general that it says nothing useful.
"Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee’s slamming “free trade.” - come on, read the article you linked to, that wasn't what he was actually saying. Can't tell if the author is ignorant, lazy, lacking self-awareness or all of the above.
“White faces from the West are not going to go into the Middle East and solve their problems for them. The only time that sort of thing has been effective is in Japan at the end of World War II, when we just dropped two fucking atomic bombs on those people.” -- WTF - I come to FreePress for well reasoned articles not racist guilt trips.
The conversation here in the comments was useful. I liked the line in the article about "Manufactured Consent" - nicely turned phrase.
The value I got from the article was the thought process its utter shallowness triggered in me. Sigh, so disappointing. And this guy is Bari's Chief of Staff? He's trying but wow does he have a lot to learn.
Yes, thank you. My thoughts while reading it, as well.
Yes.
There are no Republicans/Conservatives. There are no Democrats/Liberals. There are only Americans with widely diverse conceptions of right and wrong, but with a broad agreement on following the Constitution. And there are two warring parties, who wish to use identity politics to turn Americans on each other by inducing them to ally with one party against the other, in a Cain and Abel kind of quarrel, so the party can benefit in their power and influence at the expense of the other. How can we create peace abroad when we are at war with one another at home?
I see us as those brainwashed by the propaganda machine and those outside of it. I watched my generation redefine racism, adopt Marxism, and condemn anybody that won't. I watch them demonstrate shocking hypocrisy and change their values and opinions overnight if pop culture says to. They went from "COVID is a right wing conspiracy theory" to "right wingers are COVID denialists" in less than a month, with no self awareness whatsoever. I watch them overtly support racist and sexist discrimination because they think they're fighting racism and sexism. I watch them riot all over the country because social media said to. I could go on with twenty years of examples. We have separated into Americans and Marxists. We are not one people and I don't think we ever could be again.
"Truth, freedom, equal rights and justice" is a value set fundamentally incompatible with "diversity equity and inclusion." We are defined by the spiritual forces we follow. "People don't have ideas, ideas have people."
"We are not one people and I don't think we ever could be again."
When were we ever one people?
When the vast majority of the country agreed that our values are freedom, independence, and justice.
Values are what's important, not ethnicity or culture or class.
"When the vast majority of the country agreed that our values are freedom, independence, and justice."
Again, when precisely was that? I'd argue the only time the U.S. had a sense of palpable national unity post-civil rights was when 9/11 occurred IMO. And even that didn't last that long.
We could be again. Look at England after it's big civil war. Those people (Catholics vs Protestants, basically) never thought they could be one people again, but they look like they are to me. Even more so after Brexit.
I'm not sure I agree with you, although the words sound nice. In a poll over 60% of Democrats said they'd run away if America were invaded. Somebody is supporting open borders and illegal immigration. Somebody is supporting racial division. Somebody is supporting mutilating children. Somebody is voting the Party that promotes this. Somebody is putting up law signs saying "Hate has no home here" or "No person is illegal." Just who might they be?
Progressives, starting with Woodrow Wilson, have always used the "Make the world safe for Democracy" trope to push their never-ending wars. They led us into the disaster of WWI, and have been spouting the same nonsense ever since. They use "spreading Democracy to the world" as cover for their firm belief that they are the experts who should rule the world. War profiteers are more than happy to support Progressive delusions.
You raise an interesting point. I wonder what the world would have looked like if there hadn't been American troops to turn back the 1918 Ludendorf offensive.
It is interesting to speculate. My guess is that Prussia/Germany would have won, but only on the continent; Hitler would very likely never have risen beyond Corporal. There would still probably be huge numbers of Jews in northern Europe, particularly Germany. Russia would likely not have expanded into the Soviet Union, or not so far to the west.
Lol. Upset about "Hate has no home here."
You and your polls https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/fact-check-poll-democrats-fight-us-invaded-1691492%3famp=1#cobssid=s
Yeah....still gonna need an answer on that CRA in the booth, one person-one vote question.
And I'm one of those Republicans that blindly accepted the CIA/FBI narratives for 60 of my 66 year. It was a lot easier for them to operate when traditional media was so easily controlled, but now that social media has made so many other viewpoints, and evidence, available to the public, I feel gullible and betrayed. I'm not the only one, as the entire party seems to have shifted it's feelings on many formerly 'Conservative' positions.
I think you make an excellent point. Let's not under-estimate the work of people like Matt Taibbi, Glenn Greenwald and our very own Bari Weiss. They are part of this awakening. The lies are being exposed and that's why opinions are shifting.
And Trump. The first President since Dwight that had the balls to call them out.....and look what they did to him.
Sorry, Jon. No one is allowed to say anything nice about Trump. #OrangeManBad
I am slightly younger than you and feel the same. I look back in horror at my naivete after 9/11 which planted many of the seeds for the clown show we see now via the Patriot act.
I, too, fell for the Patriot Act at the time. It was terrifying to feel so vulnerable to an organization of fanatical murderers. It didn't help that the Left was insisting (falsely) that the fanaticism had nothing at all to do with Islam.
By 2004, my essential classical liberalism had reasserted itself. But it is embarrassing to realize that I fell for "safety at any cost."
Wasn't it Frankin who said "Those who give up freedom for safety deserve neither."?
One of my favorite quotes. I have it on a t-shirt.
I'm still angry about the Patriot Act. How can that still be law?
Because once rights are ceded/taken away, they are (almost?) impossible to get back. And FEAR is the tool used by those in power to manipulate the people into giving up their rights (aka manufactured consent). E.G. 9/11 -> Patriot Act, Red Scare -> McCarthyism, Covid -> lockdowns/mask mandates/vax passports.
I wish you were right, but I do not think there is "broad agreement on following the Constitution". The people who tend to align themselves with the Democrats increasingly want to eliminate the electoral college, have already eliminated the point and power of the Senate by making them popularly elected, and generally want to change the Constitution, not using the mechanisms created for that purpose (Congress) but by using the unelected judiciary to do it.
Agreed, except for this: "...but with a broad agreement on following the Constitution." - There are too many (and growing) who wish to do away with (and/or are actively violating) the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th and 10th amendments.
But yes, the government's 'Divide and Conquer' strategy is working very well to keep the people fighting amongst themselves so they don't turn their torches and pitchforks on those in power. If only most people realized they were being manipulated in this way, We the People could take our power back.
I mean, I was around when the "coalition of the willing" went into Iraq to neutralize a nonexistent threat, and wound up ruining the country, killing hundreds of thousands, ultimately for nothing. And hey 20 years of Afghanistan and tens of thousands of drone strikes all over the world, nothing to see there, just a bunch of dead nobodies that we don't care about.
So perhaps the "anti war right" is just people who are sick of the tail of destruction and tragedy to follows US policy everywhere it goes.
And frankly, the Free Press is very one sided about the whole Ukraine conflict. Its like, you really believe Putin is a madman who woke up one day and decided to invade his neighbour and conduct genocide. Grow up, this is the real world and if you actually bothered to cover this subject like you do others you'd see how this war was totally avoidable but yet ultimately inevitable given the actions of 3rd parties i.e not Russia nor Ukraine
Exactly this: "Perhaps the 'anti war right' is just people who are sick of the tail of destruction and tragedy [that] follows US policy everywhere it goes."
One wonders where Code Pink is. They kind of disappeared when the Obama came didn’t they? And I guess Cindy Sheehan became persona non grata at the same time.
Obviously some wars are better than others.
Good question.
The Libertarian Party motivated the "Rage Against the War Machine" rally in DC (February 19) and had indicated that, among others, the Code Pink people would make a showing.
I did not distinguish any Code Pink people there on that crisp, blue afternoon. But the crowd was diverse. The "Black Panther Party" provided security. I got handed literature from a host of Old School lefty groups ... as well as from the Libertarians.
Yeah, I noticed at the time that Leftists were suddenly telling Cindy Sheehan to shut up.
Makes sense. "We're the war party now, Cindy, so we're gonna need you to cease and desist all your anti-war activism. Thanks."
Don’t forget Syria and North Africa which were “mini” disasters - except of course for the many thousands we ensured died for no reason.
Exactly. It's like they've been hypnotized by Establishment propaganda.
Count me in. It ain't rocket surgery. Over the decades I have watched from the sidelines as American citizens - the titular masters of their government - have been brushed aside by that government in its profligate spending and reckless pursuit of foreign adventuring - while it couldn't care less about the welfare of those who pay all the bills for it.
It is so disheartening. Just the briefest of research reveals that not only are Americans the hardest-working and most productive on the planet, their work produces enough goods and services that Every One of them could live comfortable lives, free from worries about groceries or gas for their cars. Families could easily live on one paycheck, freeing a spouse to spend full time making a home for that family instead of paying her/his part of the bills each month. Home ownership - now out of reach for nearly all young men and women starting their lives together - would be easily WITHIN reach.
Why is it not? Well, where would you like to start? $85B USD of hardware, abandoned in the desert? Gone. Over $100B - and counting - to defend the borders of a country few can find on a map, after provoking Russia into a war of attrition after threatening to place a NATO ally on its border? Flooding the nation with 2-3 million illegal aliens, many, if not most of whom will end up on the public dole?
No, as the old song goes, we could all be wearing Spandex, but that is not going to happen. Why? Because we are lazy? No, because people who bear no consequence for wrong decisions are driving us over the cliff. You know the quote from the immortal Pogo the Possum: we have met the enemy, and he is us.
What did you think would happen when America elected (maybe) a senile grifter who was never more than a mediocre, lifelong senator and his cackling harridan running mate? And people pretend that this is normal. To have the leader of the free world in a diaper, falling up stairs and mumbling and snarling incoherently?
You can rest assured it's a free and fair election when the winner is the guy who couldn't get 300 people to a Lady Gaga concert.
I had to look up harridan. I owe you one for that.
I thanked him three weeks ago for the same word..
This.
One of the best comments I’ve seen on this thread. Thank you!!
I used to be an anti-war liberal, but the left has lost their minds and drifted so far from the values I thought they represented. I guess this now makes me an "anti-war conservative." I'm okay with that.
Anti-war conservative, a.k.a. Libertarian. Welcome! ;)
The author makes too many unsupported generalizations about the “right” and “left” wings. The fact is that more and more AMERICANS are seeing the consequences of poor policies playing out in our own lives. Foreign wars come home quickly when it’s my outstanding grandson being offered up as cannon fodder by a Marine Corps leadership that has lost its compass and mind. Pronoun obsession is just a symptom of the larger degradation of our military readiness by people who should have never been commissioned to begin with. War fighting is ugly, and should not be undertaken lightly. We must all become “citizen soldiers” to keep in check an evolved military that can no longer clearly define its mission as defense of the country.
Beautifully stated.
Hear hear!
Overall, this article is on-point. The one thing I would push back on is the idea that opposing Democrats is a factor driving conservatives to become anti-interventionist. This is the type of pettiness that characterizes the left, not the right.
And perhaps there should have been more mention of the fact that America is now beyond bankrupt. Once upon a time, we could afford to be the world's unpaid police force. Those days are long gone. And anyone who has driven more than a few miles on American roads can see and feel the decline.
I agree completely. We cannot afford it anymore.
The authoritarian Left and authoritarian Right will do and say whatever it takes in the acquisition and maintenance of power. I'm a small "L" libertarian and a retired Marine who believes in a strong military for deterrence and defense, but I also believe that throwing away the lives of young Americans for wars of choice is completely immoral.
No one is calling for withdrawing from the world economically or diplomaticaly. I find it insane and enraging that war hawks on both sides have managed to redefine the desire to avoid wars of choice as "isolationism."
It's just another (meaningless) derogatory term thrown around to denounce anyone who disagrees with the Establishment narrative; like transphobe, racist, ableist, conspiracy theorist, far-right, etc.
Mr. Grafstein writes, "...yes, the anti-war movement in America used to be on the left..."
OR maybe "left" and "right" are meaningless distinctions. A point that's emphasized further down in the article when Mr. Grafstein quotes a podcaster observing, "It’s just marketing...People want to root for one side or the other."
The Ukraine War, as it's being fought now, is unwinnable. The West wins it when Putin drops dead (which has to happen sooner or later.). Russia wins it when the U.S. realizes they'd get a better return on their investment by setting fire to $13 billion in the Washington Mall and selling the resulting video to pay-per-view.
I feel for the individuals whose lives have been ruined by various politicians' delusions of manifest destiny and recall lines written by the long dead and obscure Greek philosopher Bion:
"The boys throw stones at the frogs for sport
But the frogs die in earnest."
War SUCKS.
China and Putin win this war when they redefine the financial system to get away from dollar hegemony and collapse the finances of the West, and when NATO backs off from Ukraine in global humiliation. They're using our own cold war playbook against us, and it's working because our leadership are shockingly stupid and corrupt.
On the other side, NATO wins if Putin's support cracks and he becomes an international pariah. That isn't happening. The West has absolutely no strategy here but they're digging their heels in deeper. They thought their initial financial and propaganda assaults would collapse Russian support, and the opposite happened.
This war might spell the end of the USA 's perceived leadership position in the world. China just last week explicitly said that's their goal.
If you haven't already, you might want to read Lionel Shriver's "The Mandibles." The main driver of the plot is the rise of a competing international currency, the collapse of the dollar, and the effects on the U.S. economic system. The results are... not good.
(It's also a pretty vicious social satire as well, one that really resonates.)
Thanks for the recommendation, I haven't read fiction in a while and it would be a nice change of pace.
It does plod through a fair amount of tedious exposition about currencies, which I ended up skimming through, but again, the social satire is brutal (no class or race goes unscathed).
You also get a sense of what Venezuela has gone through over the past couple of decades.
Or..
The US military and intelligence apparatus is quite happy to have the war continue in order to see the ongoing degradation of the Russian armed forces. Their losses in blood and treasure in Ukraine are palpable, and as it continues, will impair Russia's conventional military ability to go head to head with anyone - at least in the near future.
That could be construed as a strategy.
I would argue after watching this war they couldn't go head to head before this started.
True enough. Russia may have been aware of its military weaknesses before the war, but now the rest of the world know them too.
I think Putin did not know and that is why he did it. You cannot tell a leader like him the truth if it is bad news.
If you're suggesting their strategy is to prolong the war as long as possible to maximize attrition, that's even more immoral than I had imagined.
Also, I don't see the exit strategy, nor a recognition of the economic costs to ourselves.
Maybe I should have said, they don't have a "sensible" or "realistic" or "working" strategy.
I can certainly agree with you on its immorality. Then again, when has our country ever really been moral in its geopolitical aims? We've been friends of dictators when it suited us, overthrown governments, assassinated leaders...
As for exit strategy, you don't see one, I don't either, and I think no one can. The US wants to see Putin bleed here, of that I'm convinced - and where that takes everybody in a few months is anyone's guess..
And what about the Ukraine people? Just collateral damage? What happens when they run out of bodies to throw into the meat grinder? Russia has a population of over 146 million, Ukraine less than 37 million and losing more every day. Do the math.
Ah, Timothy you're making the mistake of assuming I agree with what I described. I'm only writing what I think the US is planning going forward..since the comment I was responding to said we had no strategy..
I've heard that "strategy" expressed by the usual warmongering senators intent on fighting to the last Ukrainian. I was simply pointing out its flaws. If you have a better one I'd love to hear it.
Anyone who still believes that is fooling themselves. Russia is MUCH stronger and more powerful than Western leaders (and their lackey media) would have us believe. Relatively speaking (in terms of money, equipment and manpower) Russia is crushing Ukraine. Russia could very easily take Ukraine in its entirety if it wanted. But that's not its goal. You don't have to believe me. But do check out what Scott Ritter, John Mearsheimer, Chas Freeman, Noam Chomsky, among others have to say.
If your scenario is the case, then Putin cannot be too happy as his commanders as well as himself look like feckless fools in the eyes of the West, with Russia's projection of military prowess and the fear it invokes in other nations basically in the toilet.
The Russian Bear doesn't look like one at the moment, but if that's Putin's intention, to try to fool us with all his casualties on the battlefield, then credit to him for trying to pull the bloody soaked wool over our eyes..
From everything I've read and seen from several different sources, it's not Putin trying to fool everyone. Rather, it's the West massively exaggerating Russian "losses" while minimizing Ukrainian losses (so as to make the public believe that all the money & equipment we're throwing at this boondoggle is worth it), when in reality it's the opposite. So for those who follow mainstream/legacy media, they're not privy to the realities on the ground. Again, check out the perspectives of the experts I listed.
Suppose you're right. I still cannot see it being in Putin's interest to stretch this out any longer than he has to. The longer he stays at it the sooner NATO fully arms up, the quicker Sweden and Finland become members, the longer the West supplies weapons to Ukraine, the more popular Zelensky becomes, the more doubtful China is in (tacitly) supporting Russia, the less respect outlaw states such as North Korea, Iran, Syria et al have in Putin's power, and more importantly - the less patience critics within Russia have in Putin. He does have them, they've been vocal and angry about Russia's performance in Ukraine, and I wonder how secure he feels at home sitting at that very long table of his.
The anti-war movement on the left has always been largely self interest - young people not wanting to get drafted to actually fight the war. The over-arching theme of leftists, starting with Woodrow Wilson, has been promoting wars to "Make the world safe for democracy", or to spread "democracy to the world". In reality, they want to spread Progressive utopia to every corner of the earth, to be ruled by Progressive experts.
Agreed. Bush also pursued this path. I was in favor of both IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN but as six months operations as a “teaching moment” for the rest of the bad actors.
130 billion...so far
Wow. Thanks for the correction.
That’s less than the amount Americans will spend on .... pizza in 2022 and 2023.
100 likes
Trump clarified things and brought back traditional American foreign policy. A strong military. Kinetic war ONLY if it is a direct American interest with clear and achievable aims. Seeking good and peaceful relations with ALL countries. FAIR trade not free trade. Secure borders. AMERICA FIRST NOT LAST.
Isn’t it funny the left screamed Trump would start WW III and here Biden is doing it with the full enthusiasm of the left.
I've long said the primary problem on the left is that they have absolutely no sense of irony. And now, no sense of humor, either.
The left never learns from history. They are convinced that their intentions are virtuous. That’s all that matters. When things go bad, they have no regrets. They meant well, ya’ know.
Gut wrenchingly true.
NO NO NO. Orange Man Bad. WAAAAAAAAAGH
Orange Man Not Bad! The establishment hated him for exposing them. Them and their media and social media puppets. He saw the corruption and tried to fix it but after Obummer established control over media by hiring the top media spouses it was “a mountain too high”. They were not going to let Trump win at any cost. Four years of unrelenting attacks from all sides. Hell it hadn’t stopped yet! Think about it- 50 intell swearing Trump bad, media’s incomprehensible attacks along with all the lies. He saw the evil and it was them. I don’t know if anyone could have sustained this but they should be happy now with Biden/Harris. DEI, “Woke universities”, trans whatever! Just dream- if Trump would have won, we would not face any of the world or domestic issues we face today but alas one could only dream.
It’s an interesting shift the nation and the party has gone through. Many of us were naive after 9-11, but the nation has learned a painful lesson. It’s not shocking that we’re reevaluating our current national priorities on the world stage after such costly and failed wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The GOP is the party of the military and has a much higher number of members who have served in the US military and have seen first hand the impact of US military commitments in loss of life and limb. While the vast majority of Democrat voters who support arming and funding a U.S. commitment to the Ukrainian war have never considered military service themselves or for their children. Somewhat ironic.
I had a child in the military and when Trump told the military to withdraw from Syria and the Pentagon lied about it a Washington Post reporter had the gall to post laugh emojis. What little respect I may have had for our press left and I now have an open loathing for it. Her children/cousins/friends/relatives will never have their lives put in danger from a foreign war. She just found it amusing that our generals basically committed treason and put our soldiers lives at risk because it scored some points on Trump. I won't utter out loud all the words in my head to describe that vapid cow.
It's stunning what has been done to the American people — and the people of the world — just to "score some points on Trump." Can you say "lab leak is a conspiracy theory"?
Democrats are the party of Big Finance and the corporate world, who are making loads of money off of sending Ukrainian neo-Nazis to get killed by Russians. It's a win all over for them.