Advocates promised decriminalizing marijuana would cure all our problems, write William P. Barr and John P. Walters. Instead, we’re a nation of addicts.
This article focuses on the dramatic side effects and risks associated with smoking weed. These should be taken seriously, but I think it actually misses what makes weed truly dangerous. It makes the user ok with being bored. They are made comfortably numb.
It also messes with your sense of time. Years go by in a blink of an eye because the user is never really present. They don’t decompress at the end of a long day, take a moment to take a deep breath and watch the sunset, enjoy a casual walk, what have you. I would compare sobriety vs. being high to actually doing something - having a lived experience - vs. watching a movie - distracting yourself for a couple hours without really experiencing anything or growing in any way.
So many young people are not just wasting their youth with weed. They’re also creating a future for themselves where they’ll have little to no real memories or experiences, nothing that helps one grow as a person and motivates continued growth.
Not dissimilar to alcohol. And we already know that young people make very bad choices with alcohol use--they aren't having a beer to relax after a hard day at work, they're drinking themselves drunk every time they drink.
Yes, they can. As minors, isn't it the responsibility of their parents to control their behavior? Are you advocating the prohibition of anything potentially harmful for fear that a minor might get it?
Actually, that is VERY WRONG. They are NO LONGER SIMILAR! Today's weed and alcohol are like comparing apples and oranges. Today's modern weed is WAY more addictive than your grandpa's weed. It causes brain damage in people under age 21... and that damage CANNOT be reversed. Legalizing it is doing irreparable harm to SO MANY kids. Also, the second smoke on unwilling children (and others) is unfair.
I think that is true of many things. The all-consuming digital world for example. Maybe the real question is what exactly are so many so desperate to escape? What is it about modern life that is so unfulfilling for so many?
Perhaps not and it’s a good question. I don’t have a strong opinion on that bc if anything I think prohibition at this point would be hugely ineffective. I do think we’ve taken a huge step back in recent years though by pretending weed is some benign plant that just helps people relax
That's a fair question, but perhaps better handled socially rather than legally. A beer or two can also help people relax and for most is fairly benign. Getting sloppy drunk is another matter and is socially discouraged, but unless one is driving, it's not illegal.
Uhhhh... Exactly how much damage do you need to see to make it illegal?? Weed use has increased 245% and the damage is astronomical!!! Geez!
Let me also add to the points made by the authors...
This past week I was walking past a neighbor's house... you guessed it! FROM THE SIDEWALK, it smelled of weed...from the sidewalk!!! Can you imagine having that next door to your house day after day?!! All you need is a little breeze and that's the end of YOUR nice outdoor time or kids' party or whatever. Your inconsiderate neighbor is out there puffing away, but YOU are the one who has to bring the kids indoors.
NOT TO MENTION.... We have traveled several times across the country and every where we go now, in the big cities especially, it smells like weed on every street corner: Denver, Minneapolis, Baltimore, Houston, Seattle, Pittsburgh, NY, DC, Annapolis, Port Angeles, etc... You cannot stay at a low-budget hotel anymore because they are now "weed-hotels". You want a weed-free vacation experience?? You better get ready to pay big bucks for hotel accommodations. Cities like Denver are just shadows of their former selves.
We used to go to Denver for a fun day or weekend out... not anymore! During the day while the business folks are there it is ok, but as soon as office hours are over, the drug dealers are taking the streets over and the smell of
ALSO, weed has been ENGINEERED TO BE MORE POTENT THAN IT HAS EVER BEEN, AND THEREFORE MORE ADDICTIVE THAN EVER BEFORE. The physiological effect on kids is devastating.... and the damage cannot be undone.
"Lost the war on drugs"??? Are you kidding me?!
Which IDIOT thought that this was a good idea? I saw a video where an incarcerated drug dealer was saying that we should legalize drugs since America has "lost the war on drugs". Why would we EVER take a drug dealer's advice?????? What a duh moment.... Since murders still happen we could also say we lost the war on murders so let's just let it be free-for-all killing... I guess you could say "defund the police" is essentially the same thing and we can all see how "great" that has turned out... Even the dems are trying to fix that one... Yes... people will do stupid things like take drugs that are horrible for them and kill others because people are people but it does not mean we don't try to stop it rather then let it explode into unfettered idiocy.
Weed and alcohol are like comparing apples and oranges. Today's modern weed is WAY more addictive than your grandpa's weed. It causes brain damage in people under age 21... and that damage CANNOT be reversed. Legalizing it is doing irreparable harm to SO MANY kids. Also, the second smoke on unwilling children (and others) is unfair.
There is no substance that kills people faster from addiction than alcohol. Most alcoholics die from withdrawal, while for example heroin withdrawal will not kill you if done in a controlled environment. Drug rehab councilors will tell you there is no worse addiction than alcohol. Yet it's legal. Teens are not legally allowed to possess or use cannabis, yet they have done so for decades and continue to. The biggest problem with cannabis right now is federal prohibition, which means the FDA can not regulate it and the federal government can not enforce regulations. I do feel that states should have put regulation in place BEFORE legalizing it, which most did not bother to do because tax revenue was so inviting, but that should have been done. I definitely agree with the above commentator that drug use is generally a symptom of a larger problem that we as a society are not addressing, and the utter failure of prohibition over the past 100 years is proof enough of that.
Todays' weed and alcohol are like comparing apples and oranges. Today's modern weed is WAY more addictive than your grandpa's weed. It causes brain damage in people under age 21... and that damage CANNOT be reversed. Legalizing it is doing irreparable harm to SO MANY kids. Also, the second smoke on unwilling children (and others) is unfair.
I could do so much better on THC products, starting with ending the use of the word cannabis in the debate. High octane weed is all kinds of things.
And yes, one of the things the plant is very good at is pulling heavy metals out of soil.
There's a truckload of lies that the lobby sold the public on. Every single claim by that lobby, every "point" made on NPR was a lie. I know. I tracked the lies and answered them. Not one journalist would listen. Not one.
I was concerned mostly with youth psychosis when legalization happened here in Canada, and events have borne out that concern: teen psychosis is way up. And that, by the way, is not just a "well stop using it and you'll be fine" kind of thing: permanent damage is done by every episode of psychosis, leading eventually to the shambling shell of someone with all the "negative" symptoms of chronic schizophrenia.
I am totally unsurprised that the smoke from burning plant matter causes the same cardiovascular injuries as tobacco, and who will take my bet that in a few years we will have the epidemiological evidence it causes the same cancers as tobacco?
I don't intend to be a downer here, but people should know what they are using, be it tobacco or marijuana, and once they know if they choose to use it that's fine with me. When my leukemia comes back, as it will one day, I fully intend to take as much advantage of legal weed as I can! But at that stage, what have I got to lose? Definitely not the same calculation for a young person.
I work in LE and I have responded to so many teen psychosis events triggered by marijuana. They almost never recover. I eventually see them walking the streets because of drug induced psychosis. Family can't deal with them. It is so sad. I do not know the answer but I think folks that grew up on 70's weed did our youth a disservice by pushing for legalization. Heck, I smoked a little weed in HS. Did not like how it made me feel. I can't even imagine this super THC.
Okay so calling marijuana a “pipe dream” was funny. I don’t advocate marijuana use but I do advocate criticisms with validity. There is a fair amount of research done on marijuana. For the last time it doesn’t cause psychosis in regular people. Savodnik wrote a piece of flaming garbage, citing sources that didn’t support his argument saying the same thing awhile back.
Marijuana only causes psychosis in people with a genetic predisposition to Bipolar Disorder(s) and Schizophrenia. As indicated by a family history of the disorders. In those select people it has a well documented link to an earlier onset of the illness and a more severe progression of the disorder. The everyday person is not going to go crazy from Marijuana.
I don’t advocate Marijuana use. But that nonsense criticism remains a constant source of irritation for me. There are plenty of valid reasons not to smoke Marijuana without misrepresenting well established research.
As a scientist, this myth that THC doesn't cause psychosis except in the susceptible is false. It is also a tautalogical argument.
The appearance of psychotic thinking and mental dysfunction is a matter of dose. It occurs in anyone. This has been known for a long time. The word "assassin" comes from hashishin. Claiming that "reefer madness" doesn't exist is like claiming that LSD doesn't cause a psychotomimetic state. LSD in low dose doesn't, and there is science showing it can normalize autistic children. But this is always a matter of dose.
Pharma 101. Dose is everything.
In addition to the history and science, I have seen its violent effect on teens. The son of a friend transformed into a violent kid. I heard him talking to another member of his gang about using concentrates to get ready for his test. He had to attack and beat the crap out of 4 random Hispanic teens by himself, without weapons.
Same kid beat his mother and broke windows, etc at home.
Yes. Too much marijuana in one sitting can make the user catatonic for a few hours. I saw that happen to someone I knew over fifty years ago. Regular use can make the user schizophrenic for the rest of their life. That happened to a relative of mine fifty years ago.
I also saw a good friend succumb to chronic pot use (starting in late 1980's) and he continued to do so for a very long time, with his life sinking lower and lower. We lost touch in the early 2000's. Like most drug use of this magnitude (including alcohol), the user is oftentimes trying to numb pain/trauma of some degree. There are others who use marijuana recreationally and outwardly seem to me, just fine. Like most things in life, moderation is wholly underrated.
Not only dose... Today's modern weed is WAY more addictive than your grandpa's weed. It causes brain damage in people under age 21... and that damage CANNOT be reversed. Legalizing it is doing irreparable harm to SO MANY kids. Also, the second smoke on unwilling children (and others) is unfair.
So I am thinking that your friend's son's violent tendencies and gang activity were the problem. It is a stretch to say that marijuana, even today's high potency marijuana, caused his violence. I do believe there is a correlation between high potency marijuana and psychosis but all psychosis does not involve violence. That is why we are supposed to love and treasure the mentally ill homeless folk - they are not generally speaking violent.
And there it is. Tautology blabbered. "I know there is no relationship, therefore there is not. That means that in any case that contradicts my assumption, it must be 'violent tendencies', even one in which the kids themselves were talking and got ready for an attack by getting stoned out of their minds 😳."
Not that I expect you to ever acknowledge such blabbering jabber is tautology.
That is funny from one with zero recognition of opposing arguments. The classic right-fighter. All I said, specifically about your anecdote about your friend's son, so not even first hand anecdote, is that correlation does not equal causation. Which I stand by. And will add that you equate psychosis with violence. Just sounds like a violent kid to me. No evidence whatsoever of psychosis. None. Zero. Nada. Zilch. Curious, in your all-seeing, all-knowing capacity did you require your friend seek mental health treatment for his
I grew up with those "opposing arguments" as gospel. I'm a scientist. I proposed and put out a call for a psychedelic clinical trial. I taught a class at UC on psychedelic drugs. I am the exact opposite of everything you are assuming.
Explains a lot really. I haven't actually assumed anything. I made a couple of observations. Nor do I disagree that modern pot is a drug. An herb it is not. But you made assumptions about your friend's son that were faulty. They were based on anecdote, correlation, and a false equivalency. Hardly scientific. Not unusual for one who disdains their upbringing and can't get past it. A shame really.
I believed the same thing until I started having terrible anxiety. It wasn't until I slowly tapered my use that I discovered cannabis was causing the anxiety. My routine consisted of vape/bong rip every 20 minutes from 6-11 every night for ~5 years and on the weekends it was for 12+ hours a day. This was highly potent 21-28% THC cannabis. I thought I was having fun back then. Boy was I misguided.
Still relevant to the overall conversation. I'm not for prohibition, but it's not the cure-all, without repercussions, recreational or medicinal drug being sold by proponents of legalization.
I just checked with my wife (a child psychiatrist who sees psychotic teens): she tells me we are still not certain one way or the other as to whether marijuana causes psychosis in individuals who would otherwise not develop it, but the evidence is beginning to suggest it does. Furthermore, the younger you develop it, the more damage will be done to brain function and thus the more likely it will recur even if you stop smoking weed.
My brother in law works in a gastroenterology clinic as a PA (for many, many years). He tells me chronic weed use is the biggest problem he sees today that nobody is talking about, and in his estimation it’s going to cost health care industry in the $ billions. He says many patients are on disability, experience digestive issues (including vomiting) but will not listen/accept that it’s the weed use exacerbating the issues. The propaganda that ‘weed is good/benign’ has been effective. We will eventually pay for our collective, willful ignorance.
He has a lot to say about the dangers of Ozempic as well… paralyzing of stomach and still understudied impact to gut produced serotonin, could be another health care $ disaster in the making. No doubt Big Pharma will come up with another $ patch’ if so.
Yeah Ozempic was originally created as a diabetes medication. Perhaps if you have diabetes its worth the risks. I personally don’t know however. But the human body is such an insanely complex system tinkering with it chemically always has unpredictable effects. Ozempic is not old enough to have been researched well.
Family medical history is not the same thing as knowing about the presence of specific mutations. Those can sometimes be inferred from a family medical history, but detailed genetic information doesn't come from knowing Grandma had a stroke.
I studies i’m referring to have been done since 2010. So they would have been using marijuana with a potency common in this era. The less potent marijuana people are referring to was the stuff people smoked in the 70’s.
Psychosis is very much real, temporary and permanent alike. Research is solid. Also, the everyday person can go crazy from marijuana use. My family has been torn apart from this, as are families close to us (as you may have gathered, we lived in a marijuana-rich environment).
I smell it everyday. Sometimes from neighbors, sometimes at intersections waiting for a red light. Sometimes walking down the street, sometimes it comes wafting in to my church. I never thought of this as a marijuana rich environment, but it is more marijuana rich than I would like.
That is correct but it be wrong to imply that without finding the smoking gun mutation there's no evidence that Schizophrenia is genetic.
With fMRI they have been able to observe numerous differences in the brains of people with schizophrenia including:
Reduced brain volume and gray matter density.
Altered activity in the prefrontal cortex, thalamus, and amygdala.
Abnormal patterns of connectivity within the brain's major networks.
As well as abnormal hemodynamic responses to cognitive tasks, indicating differences in how their brains utilize oxygen and nutrients during cognitive activities.
To say there is no genetic component to Schizophrenia would be entirely unsupported. The numerous brain abnormalities aren't the result of life experience or exposure to drugs. Substance-induced psychosis is very distinct from Schizophrenia. But yes, we don't fully understand the disorder yet.
Legalized "medical" marijuana in other states is also a repeated history lesson that we haven't learned yet. I live in Louisiana where medical marijuana was just legalized, and the "medical" part is a total joke. Gas stations are handing out medical cards, and dispensaries are popping up everywhere. It's the same business strategy as the oxycodone pill mills in FL, and I am afraid it will be just as effective.
My brother who is 62 years old, has been an active marijuana user since the age of 11 years old. While all of us experimented with smoking pot in our teens and 20’s, my brother was an intense, habitual user. And it really destroyed him. He went from a happy, smart kid who was kind and fun to be with to someone whose main focus in life was smoking weed. When I left home at 18 to forge my own path, my brother never seemed to mature and he lived at home with my mother till the age of 28. He could barely hold down a job and so my mother often supported him financially. And over the years he developed paranoia and anxiety, and became a conspiracy theorist. I have tried to encourage him to put the bong down and get proper help but it’s a lost cause. Marijuana destroyed my brother, and with it, our relationship.
Don't give up hope; had a similar situation with family member; at some point the desire to do something overcame the appeal of the bong and the couch. Keep trying to help him find something he really wants to do. We all need a reason to get up in the morning.
Like yours, a personal anecdote: Someone very close to me used marijuana, and sometimes harder drugs, on a daily basis for a decade in her youth. Now, years later, she has episodes of paranoia and delusion. These traits have destroyed our relationship. She’s endured other traumas, so is marijuana entirely at fault? Probably not, but I blame it to some extent.
Some people seem to tolerate marajuana better than others. I found it made me very anxious. Unbeknownst to him, my son was given some and he ended up in the hospital that night suffering from anxiety. I am convinced it is much more dangerous than people believe. Words are powerful. Calling it a “recreational “ drug is doing the country a disservice.
Should recreational marijuana be legal? A thousand times, No. States have jumped on the bus to legalize because it’s a revenue cow, and have closed their eyes to its dangers to mental and physical health - especially true of the newer, more potent iterations of the drug.
It’s been obvious for a long time that most chronic marijuana users lose mental acuity and productivity, and that it becomes a gateway to opioids for some; and stronger versions of the drug have ramped up the problems for individuals and for society. To this article, I’ll add the reporting of Alex Berenson on the dramatic increase in psychoses among weed users.
Spare me the argument that liquor is worse overall for society but is legal. Perhaps, but so what? Why make legal anything else that is broadly harmful?
People who argue for legalization tend to fall into three camps: Either they benefit financially, or they want to keep on getting wasted without fear of arrest, or they’re libertarians who oppose government regulation of almost anything. Not even the libertarian’s perspective is enough for me. Public health is too important, an appropriate realm for regulations. It’s why we require thoroughly tested polio and MMR vaccines for kids entering kindergarten, and seat belts in cars.
To be clear: I’m not against marijuana usage for legitimate medical reasons, including CBD products to relieve pain, which is different from what’s smoked or eaten.
A compelling argument against is that the cartels historically responsible for production and distribution see opportunity in legalization and are aiming to profit.
These are the same people who have devastating impact on the communities of origin, contribute to the immigration crisis, contribute to significant violent crime in key American cities that act as distribution centers including Baltimore and Chicago, are waging a murderous war on our southern border, build adjacent disturbing businesses that include human trafficking, and use the same channels for sale of illegal fentanyl and other drugs.
Comments from Sinaloa per a Business Insider story in 2022:
"This is a business that belongs here, to Sinaloa," a Sinaloa Cartel operative who works as a regional manager for marijuana operations in Culiacán told Insider. "We lost a share of the business, but in no time we will take it back by producing the best weed in the world."
"This is by far not the final product. We are buying seeds from all over the world to create our own strain, to produce top-notch Sinaloa weed and to develop a strong brand even better than the gringos," the producer said, referring to growers in the US.
I have never used recreational drugs not because I have a huge moral issue with substances themselves but because I've seen the damage they have done to families and communities including children here and abroad. It's seriously sad - why would any caring person want to contribute to profiting people who are absolutely evil and corrupt?
Ha ha. I saw it in a documentary called Rotten about corruption in the global food industry. The first episode is on avocados. Really, really interesting stuff.
Huh? You are concerned about the damage to families and communities, but you don't have a moral issue with it? I have a big moral issue with it, because of the harm to families and communities. I thought that is what the moral issue was, with everything.
I believe I said I don't have a moral issue with taking substances because they're substances. I have a moral problem with them because of all the reasons I listed including destruction to families and communities.
I find that these articles touting either the "Weed is Great" narrative, or the "Weed is Terrible" narrative, are both missing the point. Even if weed does have potential drawbacks in terms of ones physical or mental health (it does), the real question is whether we are prepared to criminalize every single thing that is potentially harmful in some way. As a very young man, I heavily abused both alcohol and marijuana, and to me there is simply no comparison between the destructive power of alcohol, vs the destructive power of marijuana. Alcohol is far worse in every single category I can imagine, and it's not even close. But who is talking about whether society should tolerate alcohol legalization? Adults should be left to make these decisions on their own, for good or ill, without being harassed. Want to ruin your physical health with junk food and cigarettes? It's tragic, but you should have that right. You want to ruin your family by being addicted to gambling or porn? Again, a tragedy, but all these things are legal. Some people seem to be able to handle weed just fine, while others would probably be better off not indulging, but let people make their own decisions.
What is legalized will be advertised. Legalization of pot, sports betting and online gambling were all promoted using the same lies: no harm to people and government revenue.
After reading this I understand why Barr could not find evidence of election fraud in 2020. In this article sweeping conclusions are drawn such as increases in crime stemming from legalization of marijuana and relies in part on Oregon as proof thereof. But Oregon decriminalized everything. And the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas state for crime statistics is telling. IMO it reveals the true motive - protection of the almighty dollar. That is not my altar.
This article, like many anti-legalization articles, mentions that today's weed is many times more potent than in the past. It leaves out the obvious corollary, that users use less today.
Consider beer vs. hard liquor. Most adults can drink a 12oz can of beer with no ill effects. Yet we can't chug 12oz of hard liquor the way we can beer. So we drink less of it. No different with weed.
A young doctor friend told me about his experience about a decade ago in gross anatomy lab during medical school. One of their cadavers was a 70+ year old smoker who died of lung cancer. Another of the cadavers was a man in his 30's who died in a traffic accident but had a history of marijuana use. The lungs of the marijuana user looked as bad, if not worse, than the elderly smoker. As he told me, a lot of those med students left the lab "scared straight" and their attitude about marijuana use was forever changed. Nothing like irrefutable evidence to change someone's mind.
This article focuses on the dramatic side effects and risks associated with smoking weed. These should be taken seriously, but I think it actually misses what makes weed truly dangerous. It makes the user ok with being bored. They are made comfortably numb.
It also messes with your sense of time. Years go by in a blink of an eye because the user is never really present. They don’t decompress at the end of a long day, take a moment to take a deep breath and watch the sunset, enjoy a casual walk, what have you. I would compare sobriety vs. being high to actually doing something - having a lived experience - vs. watching a movie - distracting yourself for a couple hours without really experiencing anything or growing in any way.
So many young people are not just wasting their youth with weed. They’re also creating a future for themselves where they’ll have little to no real memories or experiences, nothing that helps one grow as a person and motivates continued growth.
Not dissimilar to alcohol. And we already know that young people make very bad choices with alcohol use--they aren't having a beer to relax after a hard day at work, they're drinking themselves drunk every time they drink.
Which is why minors aren't allowed to buy alcohol.
And yet they get hold of it.
Yes, they can. As minors, isn't it the responsibility of their parents to control their behavior? Are you advocating the prohibition of anything potentially harmful for fear that a minor might get it?
No, I am not.
Actually, that is VERY WRONG. They are NO LONGER SIMILAR! Today's weed and alcohol are like comparing apples and oranges. Today's modern weed is WAY more addictive than your grandpa's weed. It causes brain damage in people under age 21... and that damage CANNOT be reversed. Legalizing it is doing irreparable harm to SO MANY kids. Also, the second smoke on unwilling children (and others) is unfair.
I think that is true of many things. The all-consuming digital world for example. Maybe the real question is what exactly are so many so desperate to escape? What is it about modern life that is so unfulfilling for so many?
IMO this is what you get when you coddle a person mentally, physically and spiritually. You stunt their growth and make them perpetual babies.
I agree. The old good times make weak people thing.
But is that a justification for making it illegal?
Perhaps not and it’s a good question. I don’t have a strong opinion on that bc if anything I think prohibition at this point would be hugely ineffective. I do think we’ve taken a huge step back in recent years though by pretending weed is some benign plant that just helps people relax
That's a fair question, but perhaps better handled socially rather than legally. A beer or two can also help people relax and for most is fairly benign. Getting sloppy drunk is another matter and is socially discouraged, but unless one is driving, it's not illegal.
Uhhhh... Exactly how much damage do you need to see to make it illegal?? Weed use has increased 245% and the damage is astronomical!!! Geez!
Let me also add to the points made by the authors...
This past week I was walking past a neighbor's house... you guessed it! FROM THE SIDEWALK, it smelled of weed...from the sidewalk!!! Can you imagine having that next door to your house day after day?!! All you need is a little breeze and that's the end of YOUR nice outdoor time or kids' party or whatever. Your inconsiderate neighbor is out there puffing away, but YOU are the one who has to bring the kids indoors.
NOT TO MENTION.... We have traveled several times across the country and every where we go now, in the big cities especially, it smells like weed on every street corner: Denver, Minneapolis, Baltimore, Houston, Seattle, Pittsburgh, NY, DC, Annapolis, Port Angeles, etc... You cannot stay at a low-budget hotel anymore because they are now "weed-hotels". You want a weed-free vacation experience?? You better get ready to pay big bucks for hotel accommodations. Cities like Denver are just shadows of their former selves.
We used to go to Denver for a fun day or weekend out... not anymore! During the day while the business folks are there it is ok, but as soon as office hours are over, the drug dealers are taking the streets over and the smell of
ALSO, weed has been ENGINEERED TO BE MORE POTENT THAN IT HAS EVER BEEN, AND THEREFORE MORE ADDICTIVE THAN EVER BEFORE. The physiological effect on kids is devastating.... and the damage cannot be undone.
"Lost the war on drugs"??? Are you kidding me?!
Which IDIOT thought that this was a good idea? I saw a video where an incarcerated drug dealer was saying that we should legalize drugs since America has "lost the war on drugs". Why would we EVER take a drug dealer's advice?????? What a duh moment.... Since murders still happen we could also say we lost the war on murders so let's just let it be free-for-all killing... I guess you could say "defund the police" is essentially the same thing and we can all see how "great" that has turned out... Even the dems are trying to fix that one... Yes... people will do stupid things like take drugs that are horrible for them and kill others because people are people but it does not mean we don't try to stop it rather then let it explode into unfettered idiocy.
How's prohibition worked out?
Weed and alcohol are like comparing apples and oranges. Today's modern weed is WAY more addictive than your grandpa's weed. It causes brain damage in people under age 21... and that damage CANNOT be reversed. Legalizing it is doing irreparable harm to SO MANY kids. Also, the second smoke on unwilling children (and others) is unfair.
Cornell + SUNY trained info.
There is no substance that kills people faster from addiction than alcohol. Most alcoholics die from withdrawal, while for example heroin withdrawal will not kill you if done in a controlled environment. Drug rehab councilors will tell you there is no worse addiction than alcohol. Yet it's legal. Teens are not legally allowed to possess or use cannabis, yet they have done so for decades and continue to. The biggest problem with cannabis right now is federal prohibition, which means the FDA can not regulate it and the federal government can not enforce regulations. I do feel that states should have put regulation in place BEFORE legalizing it, which most did not bother to do because tax revenue was so inviting, but that should have been done. I definitely agree with the above commentator that drug use is generally a symptom of a larger problem that we as a society are not addressing, and the utter failure of prohibition over the past 100 years is proof enough of that.
Todays' weed and alcohol are like comparing apples and oranges. Today's modern weed is WAY more addictive than your grandpa's weed. It causes brain damage in people under age 21... and that damage CANNOT be reversed. Legalizing it is doing irreparable harm to SO MANY kids. Also, the second smoke on unwilling children (and others) is unfair.
I could do so much better on THC products, starting with ending the use of the word cannabis in the debate. High octane weed is all kinds of things.
And yes, one of the things the plant is very good at is pulling heavy metals out of soil.
There's a truckload of lies that the lobby sold the public on. Every single claim by that lobby, every "point" made on NPR was a lie. I know. I tracked the lies and answered them. Not one journalist would listen. Not one.
Spartacus, Spartacus, Spartacus. Real journalists do not exist anymore.
Poor Spartacus.
I was concerned mostly with youth psychosis when legalization happened here in Canada, and events have borne out that concern: teen psychosis is way up. And that, by the way, is not just a "well stop using it and you'll be fine" kind of thing: permanent damage is done by every episode of psychosis, leading eventually to the shambling shell of someone with all the "negative" symptoms of chronic schizophrenia.
I am totally unsurprised that the smoke from burning plant matter causes the same cardiovascular injuries as tobacco, and who will take my bet that in a few years we will have the epidemiological evidence it causes the same cancers as tobacco?
I don't intend to be a downer here, but people should know what they are using, be it tobacco or marijuana, and once they know if they choose to use it that's fine with me. When my leukemia comes back, as it will one day, I fully intend to take as much advantage of legal weed as I can! But at that stage, what have I got to lose? Definitely not the same calculation for a young person.
I work in LE and I have responded to so many teen psychosis events triggered by marijuana. They almost never recover. I eventually see them walking the streets because of drug induced psychosis. Family can't deal with them. It is so sad. I do not know the answer but I think folks that grew up on 70's weed did our youth a disservice by pushing for legalization. Heck, I smoked a little weed in HS. Did not like how it made me feel. I can't even imagine this super THC.
Okay so calling marijuana a “pipe dream” was funny. I don’t advocate marijuana use but I do advocate criticisms with validity. There is a fair amount of research done on marijuana. For the last time it doesn’t cause psychosis in regular people. Savodnik wrote a piece of flaming garbage, citing sources that didn’t support his argument saying the same thing awhile back.
Marijuana only causes psychosis in people with a genetic predisposition to Bipolar Disorder(s) and Schizophrenia. As indicated by a family history of the disorders. In those select people it has a well documented link to an earlier onset of the illness and a more severe progression of the disorder. The everyday person is not going to go crazy from Marijuana.
I don’t advocate Marijuana use. But that nonsense criticism remains a constant source of irritation for me. There are plenty of valid reasons not to smoke Marijuana without misrepresenting well established research.
As a scientist, this myth that THC doesn't cause psychosis except in the susceptible is false. It is also a tautalogical argument.
The appearance of psychotic thinking and mental dysfunction is a matter of dose. It occurs in anyone. This has been known for a long time. The word "assassin" comes from hashishin. Claiming that "reefer madness" doesn't exist is like claiming that LSD doesn't cause a psychotomimetic state. LSD in low dose doesn't, and there is science showing it can normalize autistic children. But this is always a matter of dose.
Pharma 101. Dose is everything.
In addition to the history and science, I have seen its violent effect on teens. The son of a friend transformed into a violent kid. I heard him talking to another member of his gang about using concentrates to get ready for his test. He had to attack and beat the crap out of 4 random Hispanic teens by himself, without weapons.
Same kid beat his mother and broke windows, etc at home.
Dose is absolutely everything. The same substance can cure or kill, depending on the dose.
And weed in present day is MUCH more potent than when I was a youth (1980’s). Can put users in catatonic state.
Yes. Too much marijuana in one sitting can make the user catatonic for a few hours. I saw that happen to someone I knew over fifty years ago. Regular use can make the user schizophrenic for the rest of their life. That happened to a relative of mine fifty years ago.
I also saw a good friend succumb to chronic pot use (starting in late 1980's) and he continued to do so for a very long time, with his life sinking lower and lower. We lost touch in the early 2000's. Like most drug use of this magnitude (including alcohol), the user is oftentimes trying to numb pain/trauma of some degree. There are others who use marijuana recreationally and outwardly seem to me, just fine. Like most things in life, moderation is wholly underrated.
Here are some sources you’ll ignore since they go against your preexisting beliefs:
https://journals.lww.com/indianjpsychiatry/fulltext/2014/56010/Cannabis_and_psychosis__Neurobiology.3.aspx
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165178117301580
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0920996416300159
https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/5/1578
I can keep going there is ample research supporting what I said. You’re just ignoring it.
Not only dose... Today's modern weed is WAY more addictive than your grandpa's weed. It causes brain damage in people under age 21... and that damage CANNOT be reversed. Legalizing it is doing irreparable harm to SO MANY kids. Also, the second smoke on unwilling children (and others) is unfair.
What an oddly worded anecdote at the end there....
So I am thinking that your friend's son's violent tendencies and gang activity were the problem. It is a stretch to say that marijuana, even today's high potency marijuana, caused his violence. I do believe there is a correlation between high potency marijuana and psychosis but all psychosis does not involve violence. That is why we are supposed to love and treasure the mentally ill homeless folk - they are not generally speaking violent.
And there it is. Tautology blabbered. "I know there is no relationship, therefore there is not. That means that in any case that contradicts my assumption, it must be 'violent tendencies', even one in which the kids themselves were talking and got ready for an attack by getting stoned out of their minds 😳."
Not that I expect you to ever acknowledge such blabbering jabber is tautology.
That is funny from one with zero recognition of opposing arguments. The classic right-fighter. All I said, specifically about your anecdote about your friend's son, so not even first hand anecdote, is that correlation does not equal causation. Which I stand by. And will add that you equate psychosis with violence. Just sounds like a violent kid to me. No evidence whatsoever of psychosis. None. Zero. Nada. Zilch. Curious, in your all-seeing, all-knowing capacity did you require your friend seek mental health treatment for his
son?
I grew up with those "opposing arguments" as gospel. I'm a scientist. I proposed and put out a call for a psychedelic clinical trial. I taught a class at UC on psychedelic drugs. I am the exact opposite of everything you are assuming.
Explains a lot really. I haven't actually assumed anything. I made a couple of observations. Nor do I disagree that modern pot is a drug. An herb it is not. But you made assumptions about your friend's son that were faulty. They were based on anecdote, correlation, and a false equivalency. Hardly scientific. Not unusual for one who disdains their upbringing and can't get past it. A shame really.
I believed the same thing until I started having terrible anxiety. It wasn't until I slowly tapered my use that I discovered cannabis was causing the anxiety. My routine consisted of vape/bong rip every 20 minutes from 6-11 every night for ~5 years and on the weekends it was for 12+ hours a day. This was highly potent 21-28% THC cannabis. I thought I was having fun back then. Boy was I misguided.
“I drank alcohol all day everyday for 5 years, I couldn’t believe my liver failure!”
"Weed cures everything!" *Takes another hit*
Anxiety isn’t psychosis. This isn’t relevant to my point.
Still relevant to the overall conversation. I'm not for prohibition, but it's not the cure-all, without repercussions, recreational or medicinal drug being sold by proponents of legalization.
You are correct. Marijuana makes anxiety a lot worse. Its nonsense when people say they smoke weed to reduce anxiety.
My guard was up with your initial comment since people often disagree with me for silly reasons. But I get what your saying now.
I just checked with my wife (a child psychiatrist who sees psychotic teens): she tells me we are still not certain one way or the other as to whether marijuana causes psychosis in individuals who would otherwise not develop it, but the evidence is beginning to suggest it does. Furthermore, the younger you develop it, the more damage will be done to brain function and thus the more likely it will recur even if you stop smoking weed.
Your wife isn’t up to date on research.
Its endlessly amusing how people will disregard research as soon as it shows a result they don’t like.
My brother in law works in a gastroenterology clinic as a PA (for many, many years). He tells me chronic weed use is the biggest problem he sees today that nobody is talking about, and in his estimation it’s going to cost health care industry in the $ billions. He says many patients are on disability, experience digestive issues (including vomiting) but will not listen/accept that it’s the weed use exacerbating the issues. The propaganda that ‘weed is good/benign’ has been effective. We will eventually pay for our collective, willful ignorance.
Hes spot on Marijuana can cause horrible intestinal problems.
He has a lot to say about the dangers of Ozempic as well… paralyzing of stomach and still understudied impact to gut produced serotonin, could be another health care $ disaster in the making. No doubt Big Pharma will come up with another $ patch’ if so.
Yeah Ozempic was originally created as a diabetes medication. Perhaps if you have diabetes its worth the risks. I personally don’t know however. But the human body is such an insanely complex system tinkering with it chemically always has unpredictable effects. Ozempic is not old enough to have been researched well.
"Its endlessly amusing how people will disregard research as soon as it shows a result they don’t like."
I take it you refer to yourself.
Which is why no state has legalized Marijuana use for children. As for adults, how was prohibition working out?
When people use mariujana they don’t know their genetic predispositions.
Exactly so don’t use it.
You don’t know your family’s medical history? That’s what genetic predisposition is
Family medical history is not the same thing as knowing about the presence of specific mutations. Those can sometimes be inferred from a family medical history, but detailed genetic information doesn't come from knowing Grandma had a stroke.
What is your response to the article’s contention that a lot of that well established research was done on less potent marijuana?
I studies i’m referring to have been done since 2010. So they would have been using marijuana with a potency common in this era. The less potent marijuana people are referring to was the stuff people smoked in the 70’s.
Psychosis is very much real, temporary and permanent alike. Research is solid. Also, the everyday person can go crazy from marijuana use. My family has been torn apart from this, as are families close to us (as you may have gathered, we lived in a marijuana-rich environment).
What exactly is a "marijuana-rich environment"?
I smell it everyday. Sometimes from neighbors, sometimes at intersections waiting for a red light. Sometimes walking down the street, sometimes it comes wafting in to my church. I never thought of this as a marijuana rich environment, but it is more marijuana rich than I would like.
My understanding is that there is not necessarily a genetic component to schizophrenia.
Schizophrenia is exclusively caused by genetics. Its a long explanation but I can explain if you would like.
I understood that in spite of years of searching for underlying genetics, we still don't have a "smoking gun" mutation.
That is correct but it be wrong to imply that without finding the smoking gun mutation there's no evidence that Schizophrenia is genetic.
With fMRI they have been able to observe numerous differences in the brains of people with schizophrenia including:
Reduced brain volume and gray matter density.
Altered activity in the prefrontal cortex, thalamus, and amygdala.
Abnormal patterns of connectivity within the brain's major networks.
As well as abnormal hemodynamic responses to cognitive tasks, indicating differences in how their brains utilize oxygen and nutrients during cognitive activities.
To say there is no genetic component to Schizophrenia would be entirely unsupported. The numerous brain abnormalities aren't the result of life experience or exposure to drugs. Substance-induced psychosis is very distinct from Schizophrenia. But yes, we don't fully understand the disorder yet.
Legalized "medical" marijuana in other states is also a repeated history lesson that we haven't learned yet. I live in Louisiana where medical marijuana was just legalized, and the "medical" part is a total joke. Gas stations are handing out medical cards, and dispensaries are popping up everywhere. It's the same business strategy as the oxycodone pill mills in FL, and I am afraid it will be just as effective.
One point missed is there are no FDA studies because of the insane DEA prohibitions.
My brother who is 62 years old, has been an active marijuana user since the age of 11 years old. While all of us experimented with smoking pot in our teens and 20’s, my brother was an intense, habitual user. And it really destroyed him. He went from a happy, smart kid who was kind and fun to be with to someone whose main focus in life was smoking weed. When I left home at 18 to forge my own path, my brother never seemed to mature and he lived at home with my mother till the age of 28. He could barely hold down a job and so my mother often supported him financially. And over the years he developed paranoia and anxiety, and became a conspiracy theorist. I have tried to encourage him to put the bong down and get proper help but it’s a lost cause. Marijuana destroyed my brother, and with it, our relationship.
Don't give up hope; had a similar situation with family member; at some point the desire to do something overcame the appeal of the bong and the couch. Keep trying to help him find something he really wants to do. We all need a reason to get up in the morning.
Like yours, a personal anecdote: Someone very close to me used marijuana, and sometimes harder drugs, on a daily basis for a decade in her youth. Now, years later, she has episodes of paranoia and delusion. These traits have destroyed our relationship. She’s endured other traumas, so is marijuana entirely at fault? Probably not, but I blame it to some extent.
Some people seem to tolerate marajuana better than others. I found it made me very anxious. Unbeknownst to him, my son was given some and he ended up in the hospital that night suffering from anxiety. I am convinced it is much more dangerous than people believe. Words are powerful. Calling it a “recreational “ drug is doing the country a disservice.
Should recreational marijuana be legal? A thousand times, No. States have jumped on the bus to legalize because it’s a revenue cow, and have closed their eyes to its dangers to mental and physical health - especially true of the newer, more potent iterations of the drug.
It’s been obvious for a long time that most chronic marijuana users lose mental acuity and productivity, and that it becomes a gateway to opioids for some; and stronger versions of the drug have ramped up the problems for individuals and for society. To this article, I’ll add the reporting of Alex Berenson on the dramatic increase in psychoses among weed users.
Spare me the argument that liquor is worse overall for society but is legal. Perhaps, but so what? Why make legal anything else that is broadly harmful?
People who argue for legalization tend to fall into three camps: Either they benefit financially, or they want to keep on getting wasted without fear of arrest, or they’re libertarians who oppose government regulation of almost anything. Not even the libertarian’s perspective is enough for me. Public health is too important, an appropriate realm for regulations. It’s why we require thoroughly tested polio and MMR vaccines for kids entering kindergarten, and seat belts in cars.
To be clear: I’m not against marijuana usage for legitimate medical reasons, including CBD products to relieve pain, which is different from what’s smoked or eaten.
A compelling argument against is that the cartels historically responsible for production and distribution see opportunity in legalization and are aiming to profit.
These are the same people who have devastating impact on the communities of origin, contribute to the immigration crisis, contribute to significant violent crime in key American cities that act as distribution centers including Baltimore and Chicago, are waging a murderous war on our southern border, build adjacent disturbing businesses that include human trafficking, and use the same channels for sale of illegal fentanyl and other drugs.
Comments from Sinaloa per a Business Insider story in 2022:
"This is a business that belongs here, to Sinaloa," a Sinaloa Cartel operative who works as a regional manager for marijuana operations in Culiacán told Insider. "We lost a share of the business, but in no time we will take it back by producing the best weed in the world."
"This is by far not the final product. We are buying seeds from all over the world to create our own strain, to produce top-notch Sinaloa weed and to develop a strong brand even better than the gringos," the producer said, referring to growers in the US.
I have never used recreational drugs not because I have a huge moral issue with substances themselves but because I've seen the damage they have done to families and communities including children here and abroad. It's seriously sad - why would any caring person want to contribute to profiting people who are absolutely evil and corrupt?
Did you know there is an avocado cartel? Not kidding.
Need more info on this avacado cartel. With the avacado prices around here, they are probably poised to take over the world...
Ha ha. I saw it in a documentary called Rotten about corruption in the global food industry. The first episode is on avocados. Really, really interesting stuff.
I had heard that - also limes? Disturbing
Huh? You are concerned about the damage to families and communities, but you don't have a moral issue with it? I have a big moral issue with it, because of the harm to families and communities. I thought that is what the moral issue was, with everything.
I believe I said I don't have a moral issue with taking substances because they're substances. I have a moral problem with them because of all the reasons I listed including destruction to families and communities.
I find that these articles touting either the "Weed is Great" narrative, or the "Weed is Terrible" narrative, are both missing the point. Even if weed does have potential drawbacks in terms of ones physical or mental health (it does), the real question is whether we are prepared to criminalize every single thing that is potentially harmful in some way. As a very young man, I heavily abused both alcohol and marijuana, and to me there is simply no comparison between the destructive power of alcohol, vs the destructive power of marijuana. Alcohol is far worse in every single category I can imagine, and it's not even close. But who is talking about whether society should tolerate alcohol legalization? Adults should be left to make these decisions on their own, for good or ill, without being harassed. Want to ruin your physical health with junk food and cigarettes? It's tragic, but you should have that right. You want to ruin your family by being addicted to gambling or porn? Again, a tragedy, but all these things are legal. Some people seem to be able to handle weed just fine, while others would probably be better off not indulging, but let people make their own decisions.
What is legalized will be advertised. Legalization of pot, sports betting and online gambling were all promoted using the same lies: no harm to people and government revenue.
After reading this I understand why Barr could not find evidence of election fraud in 2020. In this article sweeping conclusions are drawn such as increases in crime stemming from legalization of marijuana and relies in part on Oregon as proof thereof. But Oregon decriminalized everything. And the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas state for crime statistics is telling. IMO it reveals the true motive - protection of the almighty dollar. That is not my altar.
This article, like many anti-legalization articles, mentions that today's weed is many times more potent than in the past. It leaves out the obvious corollary, that users use less today.
Consider beer vs. hard liquor. Most adults can drink a 12oz can of beer with no ill effects. Yet we can't chug 12oz of hard liquor the way we can beer. So we drink less of it. No different with weed.
That may be true for responsible users. But for chronic users it is not.
A young doctor friend told me about his experience about a decade ago in gross anatomy lab during medical school. One of their cadavers was a 70+ year old smoker who died of lung cancer. Another of the cadavers was a man in his 30's who died in a traffic accident but had a history of marijuana use. The lungs of the marijuana user looked as bad, if not worse, than the elderly smoker. As he told me, a lot of those med students left the lab "scared straight" and their attitude about marijuana use was forever changed. Nothing like irrefutable evidence to change someone's mind.
Johnny’s Ambassadors is a great organization to learn about the tragic harms of high THC cannabis on our young people.